Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Go Back   Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community > Main Forums > The Off Topic Forum
Register Forum Rules FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-06-2018, 04:30 PM   #781
Azure
Had an idea!
 
Azure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PepsiFree View Post
While I’m not sure how many examples of socialist governance there are that we can point to as beacons of hope, I do agree that capitalism is failing.

The problem (or one of many) inherent in capitalism is that it creates alienation and a loss of humanity. I think the teachings of Marx are becoming more relevant because we have examples of capitalism’s failure left right and center. The rich are unecessarily rich, the poor are unecessarily poor, economies in even 1st world countries are exceeding unstable, housing prices are both too high and unstable, etc.

The problem, I think, is that because of some especially bad examples of socialism in practice, capitalism has reached a near-religious status for many older generations, and because of their adherence to it younger generations are being left in a very troublesome economic state.

Capitalism has taught older generations to place money above all else. It’s given rise to a highly consumerist culture that values excess and “things” more than education, personal growth, and fulfilment. Younger generations are rejecting this, in part because capitalism is it’s own worst enemy. By creating a system where it is exceeding difficult to have more than “enough,” you teach younger generations to be satisfied with “enough,” and they begin to reject the culture of excess.

The value you give to your employer will never equal the value they get from employing you, not in the current system. And while some major companies and some of the richest people in the world give back in some very positive ways, were they simply to be satisfied with “enough,” then they could put that money back into their company and distribute the wealth among their employees, or put that money towards raising up a much bigger portion of the population.

A system based on greed disguised simply as ambition is one that’s destined to fail. I doubt we’ll ever seen the end to any sort of capitalist ideas, but I do find it ironic that people who look down their noses at “Marxism” are likely generally incomplete people. There is always something else they “could” have, whether it is needed is irrelevant. Many younger people are forced to be complete with what they DO have, and eventually, capitalism as we know it will die because those it has failed will continue to outweigh those who have benefitted from it again and again.
Capitalism, if it IS failing, is only failing because we the people don't give a s&^t about it anymore. We no longer involve ourselves in politics, we don't vote as much as we should, etc,etc. As a result a small percentage of the capitalistic world has been able to steer things in their direction, i.e. corporations with too much power.

At the end of the day greed, ambition, money....all those things you hold responsible for creating this supposed downfall of capitalism has also given everyone in the western world a pretty nice life. We've just gotten off track from those core principles, like with this stupid gender politics crapshow.

Last edited by Azure; 05-06-2018 at 04:36 PM.
Azure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2018, 04:36 PM   #782
GGG
Franchise Player
 
GGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: California
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure View Post
Capitalism, if it IS failing, is only failing because we the people don't give a s&^t about it anymore. We no longer involve ourselves in politics, we don't vote as much as we should, etc,etc. As a result a small percentage of the world has been able to steer things in their direction.

At the end of the day greed, ambition, money....all those things you hold responsible for creating this supposed downfall of capitalism has also given everyone in the western world a pretty nice life. We've just gotten off track from those core principles, like with this stupid gender politics crapshow.
I don't think it's time the gender politics ####show that is destroying capitalism. It's that unrestrained capitalism eventually results in one person/group owning all the capital and monopoly ensues. It's lack of regulation of capitalist enterprise that will be its downfall. If the profit incentive is not aligned with benefiting people than Capitalism won't improve people's lives.

Right now automation poses significant risks to Capitalism as a method of creating wealth.
GGG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2018, 04:43 PM   #783
Azure
Had an idea!
 
Azure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GGG View Post
I don't think it's time the gender politics ####show that is destroying capitalism. It's that unrestrained capitalism eventually results in one person/group owning all the capital and monopoly ensues. It's lack of regulation of capitalist enterprise that will be its downfall. If the profit incentive is not aligned with benefiting people than Capitalism won't improve people's lives.

Right now automation poses significant risks to Capitalism as a method of creating wealth.
My point about gender politics was look at how much everyone CARES about it. But when it comes to core economic principles, like building some pipelines to create jobs, wealth and opportunity for the Canadian people, even our Prime Minister is basically saying, "meh.'"

As for your other points, everything traces back to 'we the people' not caring anymore. We don't involve ourselves in politics, we don't vote....basically we don't care. Corporations have taken over the political system and have made changes that largely benefit their own profits.

There was a point earlier about having a balance between capitalism and socialist principles to create the best system. I agree, however it requires people that care and are willing to give up something to achieve that.

Wasn't there a poll done the other day that said Albertans want equal or better pubic services, no deficit and no taxes. How is that possible?

There are European economical and social systems that work FAR superior to what we have here in Canada. But how can we possibly expect to emulate them when we, as a country can't even agree to build a pipeline?
Azure is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Azure For This Useful Post:
Old 05-06-2018, 07:58 PM   #784
jayswin
Celebrated Square Root Day
 
jayswin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Exp:
Default

Haha, capitalism was always going to fall. There was no will of the people that could overcome the perfect fake democratic process set up in the USA. They were always going this way, not even clear indication on social media (a supposed new age tool to combat suppressed speech and media bias) could get peoples eyes open enough.

In fact social media has made things even worse and more divisive (better for the money makers) than ever.

We yell at each other over identity politics and they laugh from above. "Perfect, the wedge issues are keeping them more distracted than ever!".
jayswin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2018, 08:35 PM   #785
MelBridgeman
Lifetime Suspension
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Capitalism has been far far far from a failure.
MelBridgeman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2018, 09:11 PM   #786
burn_this_city
Franchise Player
 
burn_this_city's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayswin View Post
Haha, capitalism was always going to fall. There was no will of the people that could overcome the perfect fake democratic process set up in the USA. They were always going this way, not even clear indication on social media (a supposed new age tool to combat suppressed speech and media bias) could get peoples eyes open enough.

In fact social media has made things even worse and more divisive (better for the money makers) than ever.

We yell at each other over identity politics and they laugh from above. "Perfect, the wedge issues are keeping them more distracted than ever!".
The US is a democratic Republic, which due to issues like gerrymandering and electoral college system seems potentially flawed. Capitalism isn't necessarily a form of government but a financial system, and has given the vast majority of us a lifestyle better than monarchs from 100 years ago. Issues like inequality in the US could be addressed, if their democracy was fixed, by repealing nonsense like Citizens United and removing money from their political system.
burn_this_city is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2018, 06:07 AM   #787
Party Elephant
First Line Centre
 
Party Elephant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Montréal, QC
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by burn_this_city View Post
The US is a democratic Republic, which due to issues like gerrymandering and electoral college system seems potentially flawed. Capitalism isn't necessarily a form of government but a financial system, and has given the vast majority of us a lifestyle better than monarchs from 100 years ago. Issues like inequality in the US could be addressed, if their democracy was fixed, by repealing nonsense like Citizens United and removing money from their political system.
I like how you point out that capitalism is an economic system rather than a political one and then proceed to call it superior to monarchy (a political system) in the same sentence.
Party Elephant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2018, 06:31 AM   #788
burn_this_city
Franchise Player
 
burn_this_city's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Party Elephant View Post
I like how you point out that capitalism is an economic system rather than a political one and then proceed to call it superior to monarchy (a political system) in the same sentence.
I meant as individuals we live better than the best off from 100 years ago. Why would anyone make that comparison.
burn_this_city is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2018, 06:33 AM   #789
Matata
Lifetime Suspension
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MelBridgeman View Post
Capitalism has been far far far from a failure.
Capitalism has directly resulted in creating the freest, wealthiest, most progressive, most inclusive and most technology advanced nations in human history, by a staggeringly huge margin.

There has never been a successful socialist state, but they'll get it right next time, all they require is complete control of a nations resources. What could go wrong?
Matata is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Matata For This Useful Post:
Old 05-07-2018, 06:48 AM   #790
GGG
Franchise Player
 
GGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: California
Exp:
Default

I don't think anyone is arguing that capitalism has been a failure.

There is also no successful Capitalist State. All successful states have been a mixture of capitalist and socialist policies. Unbridled forms of each government will lead to collapse.

A well regulated capitalist market with socialist government programs to ensure a minimum standard of living and infrastructure has proven to create the freest, wealthiest, most progressive, most inclusive, most technologically advanced nations in human history by a staggeringly huge margin.
GGG is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to GGG For This Useful Post:
Old 05-07-2018, 08:02 AM   #791
Matata
Lifetime Suspension
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Exp:
Default

None of those good social programs get off the ground without the technology, wealth and free time generated by capitalism. Its a far easier task getting a fundamentally capitalist system to work than getting a fundamentally socialist system to work (if that is even possible).

Lebron James can't win a championship without his team, but we all know who the superstar is.

Last edited by Matata; 05-07-2018 at 09:18 AM.
Matata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2018, 08:35 AM   #792
Matata
Lifetime Suspension
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GGG View Post
I don't think anyone is arguing that capitalism has been a failure.
No one at all?:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GGG View Post
I don't think it's time the gender politics ####show that is destroying capitalism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PepsiFree
I do agree that capitalism is failing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure View Post
Capitalism, if it IS failing, is only failing because we the people don't give a s&^t about it anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayswin View Post
Haha, capitalism was always going to fall.

Last edited by Matata; 05-07-2018 at 08:44 AM.
Matata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2018, 08:59 AM   #793
CliffFletcher
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: May 2006
Exp:
Default

Capitalism is the greatest system we know for increasing living standards and spurring innovation. The opening up of Asia to the global economy has lifted 1.5 billion people out of poverty in the last 20 years. There's good reason why large majorities of people in developing countries like Vietnam, China, and Nigeria express strong support for free market systems.

But capitalism and free markets also have some pretty serious fundamental problems. The biggest is that in the absence of catastrophic disruption, like major wars and famines, wealth inevitably gets concentrated in fewer and fewer hands. The unprecedented prosperity of the West in the post-war decades was made possible due to the enormous loss of wealth suffered in WW1 and WW2. Labour temporarily had a stronger hand relative to capital, and we saw remarkable widespread prosperity and historically low levels of inequality.

But that state of affairs only lasted about three decades, and since then capital regained its irresistible gravitational power of concentration. Unless we have another catastrophe on that scale that wipes out a huge portion of the world's wealth, we'll eventually see a very small number of people holding most of the world's wealth. It will be impossible to sustain more than the facade of democracy under such conditions.

Now consider automation, and the dawning realisation that the economy of tomorrow will need far less labour than today's economy, and it should be clear that the status quo cannot be sustained much longer. Whether it's a tax on all financial transactions, a tax on machines that put people out of work, or universal basic income, we're going to have to adopt some pretty dramatic measures if we want to stave off severe social unrest.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze View Post
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.

Last edited by CliffFletcher; 05-07-2018 at 09:28 AM.
CliffFletcher is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to CliffFletcher For This Useful Post:
Old 05-07-2018, 09:16 AM   #794
PepsiFree
Participant
Participant
 
PepsiFree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matata View Post
No one at all?:
Has failed =/= “is failing”

Capitalism, like any system, has it’s limitations, and the near religious following of it by older people taught to fear the socialist boogeyman from a young age have allowed those limitations to become glaring.

The list you made (freest, wealthiest, most inclusive, technologically advanced, most progressive) shows the exact problem of religious devotion to capitalism I was talking about.

“We’re so free.”
We are? Cool, is that capitalism? Because many people are not “free,” free to vote and live as they choose, sure, but slaves to the capitalist machine where many make very little yet contribute equal value to those making much more. Are people working full time in poverty still “free?”

“We’re so wealthy.”
Who is we? Some people certainly are very very wealthy, while others are not, not even close. There IS wealth, but thanks to capitalism, is disproportionately spread in a way that millions live in poverty because very few need more money than they could possibly use.

“We’re so inclusive and progressive.”
What does this have to do with capitalism? Please explain.

“We’re so technologically advanced.”
Yeah, to the point where (as Cliff mentioned) capitalists are quickly finding ways to replace humans with machines, which will inevitably raise unemployment and further erode satisfaction with “wonderful capitalism!” unless socialist policies of wealth distribution (like the inevitable living wage that everyone will one day get regardless of their employment).

Nobody is saying capitalism is terrible, but it has incredible limitations that we need to be aware of and move to a more balanced socialist state.
PepsiFree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2018, 09:47 AM   #795
CaramonLS
Retired
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffFletcher View Post
Now consider automation, and the dawning realisation that the economy of tomorrow will need far less labour than today's economy, and it should be clear that the status quo cannot be sustained much longer. Whether it's a tax on all financial transactions, a tax on machines that put people out of work, or universal basic income, we're going to have to adopt some pretty dramatic measures if we want to stave off severe social unrest.
If anyone thinks that the anti-immigration crowd will just quiet down, or this is just a phase, they haven't seen anything yet.

Wait until human capital becomes a net negative in society.
CaramonLS is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to CaramonLS For This Useful Post:
Old 05-07-2018, 09:53 AM   #796
GirlySports
NOT breaking news
 
GirlySports's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaramonLS View Post
If anyone thinks that the anti-immigration crowd will just quiet down, or this is just a phase, they haven't seen anything yet.

Wait until human capital becomes a net negative in society.
The immigration issue is one of the most important case studies there is today. At this point I'm not sure if 'multiculturalism' works. There are needs, services, support, barriers, racism and abuses all rolled into one.

In my volunteer and professional work, I've seen all sides of this issue. It's extremely complex and I understand the grievances on both sides.
__________________
Watching the Oilers defend is like watching fire engines frantically rushing to the wrong fire

GirlySports is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2018, 10:02 AM   #797
CliffFletcher
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: May 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaramonLS View Post
If anyone thinks that the anti-immigration crowd will just quiet down, or this is just a phase, they haven't seen anything yet.

Wait until human capital becomes a net negative in society.
Immigration is at the fulcrum of old and new economy. Contrary to what we want to believe, Canada doesn't welcome large numbers of immigrants out of some king of utopian ideal around diversity. We do it because we have low birthrates, and our health care, pensions, and other public services are a kind of pyramid scheme where citizens receive far more in value than they pay in taxes during their lifetime, but we can keep the game going if each generation has more taxpayers than the previous one. And Canada is good at integrating immigrants, especially the highly-educated ones we favour.

So high immigration makes perfect sense, so long as each younger taxpayer is a net positive to the calculus. We don't have to sustain the pain of an ageing population relying on a relatively small group of younger taxpayers to pay for their health care and pensions. However, as you say, once that's no longer the case because automation has rendered most new citizens a net cost to the public balance sheet, we have a big problem on our hands.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze View Post
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.

Last edited by CliffFletcher; 05-07-2018 at 10:04 AM.
CliffFletcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2018, 10:10 AM   #798
GirlySports
NOT breaking news
 
GirlySports's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffFletcher View Post
Immigration is at the fulcrum of old and new economy. Contrary to what we want to believe, Canada doesn't welcome large numbers of immigrants out of some king of utopian ideal around diversity. We do it because we have low birthrates, and our health care, pensions, and other public services are a kind of pyramid scheme where citizens receive far more in value than they pay in taxes during their lifetime, but we can keep the game going if each generation has more taxpayers than the previous one. And Canada is good at integrating immigrants, especially the highly-educated ones we favour.

So high immigration makes perfect sense, so long as each younger taxpayer is a net positive to the calculus. We don't have to sustain the pain of an ageing population relying on a relatively small group of younger taxpayers to pay for their health care and pensions. However, as you say, once that's no longer the case because automation has rendered most new citizens a net cost to the public balance sheet, we have a big problem on our hands.
Issues include do we want immigrants to do labour jobs or spend the resources to re-qualify them to what they were? Do we want younger or older immigrants? Skill-worker or family reunification? This should probably break off into a different thread.
__________________
Watching the Oilers defend is like watching fire engines frantically rushing to the wrong fire

GirlySports is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2018, 10:10 AM   #799
PepsiFree
Participant
Participant
 
PepsiFree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GirlySports View Post
The immigration issue is one of the most important case studies there is today. At this point I'm not sure if 'multiculturalism' works. There are needs, services, support, barriers, racism and abuses all rolled into one.

In my volunteer and professional work, I've seen all sides of this issue. It's extremely complex and I understand the grievances on both sides.
Of course multiculturalism works. Can you even name a monoculture?

That’s separate from immigration though. As Cliff pointed out, immigration is necessary to maintain a balance in our economic system. When it stops working is when we have much, much bigger issues to deal with than “Is immigration good?”
PepsiFree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2018, 10:15 AM   #800
GirlySports
NOT breaking news
 
GirlySports's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

There are monocultures. Let's start with Korea and Japan.

Japan is currently dealing with the bigger issues that you are thinking about and they haven't even reached the 'is immigration good' question. Because it is non-existant.

Japan received 20,000 asylum requests in 2017. They accepted 20.
__________________
Watching the Oilers defend is like watching fire engines frantically rushing to the wrong fire

GirlySports is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to GirlySports For This Useful Post:
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:07 AM.

Calgary Flames
2024-25




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2021 | See Our Privacy Policy