Sam Bennett Value: Have the Flames held on TOO long? OR is he awesome?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by blankall

There's been a lot of young players recently, who've made immediate impacts after 1 or 2 years of being drafted, but this isn't the norm. Iginla didn't crack 60 points until year 5.

Bennett still has all the tools to be that 60+ point tenacious centre he was predicted to be. We don't know what we have yet and just need to be patient. Either way, it makes no sense to sell low on Bennett.

He scored 63 in year 4, actually (and he scored 50 points as a rookie). Plus he played in the dead puck era. Plus he scored 20+ goals in year 1, and also from year 3 onward until his last year in Calgary (30+ from year 5 onward).

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by pepper24

I see a fan base being blinded by its own player and holding hope because he was a 4th overall pick and highest Flames pick ever. He's young and works hard is all I can muster.

Personally, I don't care where anyone was drafted. You do need to hit more often than average in the first three rounds but there are 25th or 60th overalls that end up being the best of their draft class.

I am holding hope because Bennett has shown high-end ability in the NHL.

His shot is weak

Not especially. It's not elite but it's no weaker than Gaudreau, Backlund, Frolik, etc. The bigger issue is that he is never set up with open backdoor nets by his linemates, he is rarely put in position to contribute on a broken power play, and the coach has turned him into a shoot first player afraid to make the seampass and risk a turnover.

he's not that fast,

Huh? He's not MacKinnon or McDavid but he's a very fast forward.

his skating has regressed

If his skating has regressed so has the skating of Brodie, Backlund, Hamonic, etc. I suspect no one's "skating has regressed". Skating is a mentality and if you don't approach a game with that mentality the results aren't as impressive.

and he's been declining since his rookie season

The one thing that has declined for him has been shooting percentage and on-ice shooting percentages. His shot totals have risen, his two-way play has improved, and his cycle game has improved. His only "decline" has been related to confidence - the confidence to make a pass to the open man instead of shoot, the confidence to shoot intuitively instead of hesitating, the confidence to make a clean controlled entry instead of dumping the puck and hoping Garnet Hayhaway or Troy Brouwer retrieve it. You do not quit on a player when their confidence is low.

Half way through his show me contract he had a terrible season. Took him 16-17 games to register a point.

So he did absolutely nothing well in those 16-17 games because he didn't have a point? He didn't have a monster game against the Sens or an unfortunate game against the Canucks where he did everything to contribute offensively except hit the statsheet? There wasn't a game where he sprung Matthew Tkachuk on a breakaway with a pinpoint stretch pass only for Tkachuk to miss the net? He wasn't the best player on the ice in Nashville? He wasn't regularly assisting Matt Bartkowski defensively to the extent where Bartkowski kept getting slotted into games he had no business playing? He wasn't a part of the line that initiated our comeback huge win over Winnipeg?

He failed at center

Was he not our #3 center the last time this team made the playoffs - as a 20yo? Where he went toe to toe with Kesler and his line with Versteeg and Chiasson on his Flanks was arguably our best at ES? Did he not improve profoundly on faceoffs this year?

You may think he failed at center, I do not. I think his struggles have absolutely nothing - 0 - to do with center vs wing and in fact he impacts the game more at center.

and shows no top line promise

Agree to disagree. I see a skillset that oozes top line promise.

Players keep passing him on depth charts.

Who passed him on the depth chart? The only player that passed him on the depth chart has been Matthew Tkachuk, who not only grew up in a hockey family but may be a superstar talent. He certainly wasn't passed by Mark Jankowski regardless of who has the more recent 4 goal game. Ferland is a completely different player better suited to being a third wheel on a line, but when was the last time Ferland did anything when tasked to carry his line. Frolik? Frolik has had his spot on the depth chart pencilled in since before he put on a Flames Jersey.

I understand people wanting to "cut bait" on a 4th overall pick while he still has value - I just think it's stupid when as recently as November 2016 that same player was our #2 center and performing admirably before his confidence fell off the map. I think that with the success of guys like Brayden Schenn, William Karlsson, Kyle Turris, Blake Wheeler, etc later into their careers it is almost irresponsible to ignore that Bennett has the skill to be an extremely good NHLer in his prime.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

...I see a skillset that oozes top line promise...

This is what I keep coming back to. I have questioned a lot of Bennett's decision making the past two years, but in spite of that I still think he is the best puck handler/carrier on the entire team behind Gaudreau.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

He scored 63 in year 4, actually (and he scored 50 points as a rookie). Plus he played in the dead puck era. Plus he scored 20+ goals in year 1, and also from year 3 onward until his last year in Calgary (30+ from year 5 onward).

You're not counting the year he spent in the minor after his draft year and ignoring the 29 point he had in sophomore NHL season. The scoring leader in Iginla's rookie year had 122 points vs. 108 now. Both years had 9 players with 90 or more points. That dead puck era, was very similar in scoring to now. There were 2.92 goals/year in Iginla's rookie year vs. 2.97 now.

I'm not making the point that Bennett will be as good as Iginla, just pointing out how the best player for the Flames ever took a few years to adjust.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I still think he is the best puck handler/carrier on the entire team behind Gaudreau.

I think it's Backlund. It would be interesting to see if they track which players have the most clean zone entries (they carry it in and possess it over the blue line). I think zone entries would be a good measure of that attribute.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by blankall

You're not counting the year he spent in the minor after his draft year and ignoring the 29 point he had in sophomore NHL season. The scoring leader in Iginla's rookie year had 122 points vs. 108 now. Both years had 9 players with 90 or more points. That dead puck era, was very similar in scoring to now. There were 2.92 goals/year in Iginla's rookie year vs. 2.97 now.

I'm not making the point that Bennett will be as good as Iginla, just pointing out how the best player for the Flames ever took a few years to adjust.

Iginla didn't play game in the minors. He came to Calgary from junior, during the POs. Then he started with the Flames the next year. I'm not ignoring his sophomore jinx (in which he had 32 points in 70 games, not 29 points) I'm saying that in three of his first four years he was great.

BTW, That scoring leader in 1996-97 was Mario Lemieux, who had a 13 point gap over the next guy, some dude named Selanne, who in turn had 10 points over some guy named Kariya. In other words, only two guys over 100 points. The next year the winner was Jagr with 102 points, the only guy over 100. Only 4 players were over 90 that year. The next year was a bit bett but after that there was no one even over 100. Dead puck era.

[JJFlash]

Originally Posted by 868904

I'm going to say this again and again until Bennett reads this or someone in the Flames organization reads it and passes it on to him.

Bennett needs to work on his shot. Not just the velocity of the shot but how quickly he gets it off. This kid is fearless and he has the ability to cycle and elude defenders and get into the hard scoring areas but the problem is, he doesn't have an elite shot to score.

Kid needs to just work with heavy pucks all summer long, shooting 1000 times from all kinds of game situations: off the wing, cycling from the boards, one timers, slap shots from the wing.

Kid is fearless and can get to the scoring areas, that's something that you can't teach, problem is he doesn't have the finish right now but he can work on it.

He really is very similar to Kesler, who also didn't put up much points though the first few seasons but really exploded offensively after developing a one timer, he became a power play weapon for the Canucks and the improved shot also gave him all kinds of offensive confidence.

I can buy some of that but his hockey IQ is holding him back and I am not sure that can improve significantly. I remember a game where Bennett made an extra move in tight which took him from an empty net sitter into traffic without getting a shot. To me it showed that he did not have his head up and instinctively made the wrong move by not being aware of his surroundings.

As well, I can recall most of Bennett's goals this year and in the playoffs last year, and except for a goal when he came off the wall and drove to the middle to score, most of his other goals were not pretty. On the flip side if you compare that to the type of goals Janko scored it is night and day. I seem to recall that Janko's first goal went off his pants but
Some of the others were, blistering slapshots, wired wrist shots, break aways, and dekes in tight.

This is why I am fine with trading Bennett. However, I also realize that players like Kadri, Karlsson, Marchessault, and Backlund were late bloomers.

[GioforPM]

Bennett had six more points than Jake Virtanen last year. Only one more goal. Let that sink in.

[JJFlash]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

I think it's Backlund. It would be interesting to see if they track which players have the most clean zone entries (they carry it in and possess it over the blue line). I think zone entries would be a good measure of that attribute.

Backlund would be my choice as well.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Personally, I don't care where anyone was drafted. ...
....I think that with the success of guys like Brayden Schenn, William Karlsson, Kyle Turris, Blake Wheeler, etc later into their careers it is almost irresponsible to ignore that Bennett has the skill to be an extremely good NHLer in his prime.

This is the best pro-Bennett post I’ve read on here. I agree with every point.

[yourbestfriend]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

This is the best pro-Bennett post I’ve read on here. I agree with every point.

That is the only pro-Bennett argument there is. Most reasonable people would say that at ~250 games into their NHL careers, a player has more or less defined what kind of player they will be. Players who pull a Karlsson or Wheeler are the exception and not the norm and furthermore it's unfair to put those expectations on a player who just averaged 26points his last 2 seasons.

Who could of imagined or expected that Karlsson would go from 6goals and 25pts to 43goals and 78pts? Nobody, because it never happens.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by yourbestfriend

That is the only pro-Bennett argument there is. Most reasonable people would say that at ~250 games into their NHL careers, a player has more or less defined what kind of player they will be. Players who pull a Karlsson or Wheeler are the exception and not the norm and furthermore it's unfair to put those expectations on a player who just averaged 26points his last 2 seasons.

Who could of imagined or expected that Karlsson would go from 6goals and 25pts to 43goals and 78pts? Nobody, because it never happens.

Most reasonable people say 'could have imagined.'

And no, most reasonable people don't say what is bolded. Most reasonable people know that not all 22 year olds' games are fully defined.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by yourbestfriend

Most reasonable people would say that at ~250 games into their NHL careers, a player has more or less defined what kind of player they will be.

False

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by yourbestfriend

That is the only pro-Bennett argument there is. Most reasonable people would say that at ~250 games into their NHL careers, a player has more or less defined what kind of player they will be. Players who pull a Karlsson or Wheeler are the exception and not the norm and furthermore it's unfair to put those expectations on a player who just averaged 26points his last 2 seasons.

Who could of imagined or expected that Karlsson would go from 6goals and 25pts to 43goals and 78pts? Nobody, because it never happens.

No. Just no. A 28-year-old who has played 250 games is entirely different from a 22-year-old who has played 250 games. It's actually the 22-year olds that do make a big splash who are the exception rather than the norm. A 22-year-old who's played 250 games is still early in his development and arguably would have benefited from more time in the minors. Hockey players generally don't hit their peak until their mid to late twenties, which in Bennett's case is 3-7 years from now. Unfortunately, sending Bennett to the minors was not an option for the Flames, so he stayed up and was placed in a lesser role with weak linemates.

Let's not forget that Jankowski is 2 years older than Bennett. Would it have been a good move 2 years ago to trade him for a 4th round pick?

[CliffFletcher]

Nobody is saying Bennett can't turn out around. But going by the NHL history, it's unlikely he will.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Nobody is saying Bennett can't turn out around. But going by the NHL history, it's unlikely he will.

Source?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

Source?

You can look up stats just as easily as I can.

There's a reason people cite the same four or five cases of players who first demonstrated they could be high-scoring forwards only after they had 250 games under their belt - it's really uncommon.

[pepper24]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Personally, I don't care where anyone was drafted. You do need to hit more often than average in the first three rounds but there are 25th or 60th overalls that end up being the best of their draft class.

I am holding hope because Bennett has shown high-end ability in the NHL.



Not especially. It's not elite but it's no weaker than Gaudreau, Backlund, Frolik, etc. The bigger issue is that he is never set up with open backdoor nets by his linemates, he is rarely put in position to contribute on a broken power play, and the coach has turned him into a shoot first player afraid to make the seampass and risk a turnover.



Huh? He's not MacKinnon or McDavid but he's a very fast forward.



If his skating has regressed so has the skating of Brodie, Backlund, Hamonic, etc. I suspect no one's "skating has regressed". Skating is a mentality and if you don't approach a game with that mentality the results aren't as impressive.



The one thing that has declined for him has been shooting percentage and on-ice shooting percentages. His shot totals have risen, his two-way play has improved, and his cycle game has improved. His only "decline" has been related to confidence - the confidence to make a pass to the open man instead of shoot, the confidence to shoot intuitively instead of hesitating, the confidence to make a clean controlled entry instead of dumping the puck and hoping Garnet Hayhaway or Troy Brouwer retrieve it. You do not quit on a player when their confidence is low.



So he did absolutely nothing well in those 16-17 games because he didn't have a point? He didn't have a monster game against the Sens or an unfortunate game against the Canucks where he did everything to contribute offensively except hit the statsheet? There wasn't a game where he sprung Matthew Tkachuk on a breakaway with a pinpoint stretch pass only for Tkachuk to miss the net? He wasn't the best player on the ice in Nashville? He wasn't regularly assisting Matt Bartkowski defensively to the extent where Bartkowski kept getting slotted into games he had no business playing? He wasn't a part of the line that initiated our comeback huge win over Winnipeg?



Was he not our #3 center the last time this team made the playoffs - as a 20yo? Where he went toe to toe with Kesler and his line with Versteeg and Chiasson on his Flanks was arguably our best at ES? Did he not improve profoundly on faceoffs this year?

You may think he failed at center, I do not. I think his struggles have absolutely nothing - 0 - to do with center vs wing and in fact he impacts the game more at center.



Agree to disagree. I see a skillset that oozes top line promise.



Who passed him on the depth chart? The only player that passed him on the depth chart has been Matthew Tkachuk, who not only grew up in a hockey family but may be a superstar talent. He certainly wasn't passed by Mark Jankowski regardless of who has the more recent 4 goal game. Ferland is a completely different player better suited to being a third wheel on a line, but when was the last time Ferland did anything when tasked to carry his line. Frolik? Frolik has had his spot on the depth chart pencilled in since before he put on a Flames Jersey.

I understand people wanting to "cut bait" on a 4th overall pick while he still has value - I just think it's stupid when as recently as November 2016 that same player was our #2 center and performing admirably before his confidence fell off the map. I think that with the success of guys like Brayden Schenn, William Karlsson, Kyle Turris, Blake Wheeler, etc later into their careers it is almost irresponsible to ignore that Bennett has the skill to be an extremely good NHLer in his prime.

He failed at center which is why he is now a winger. If Bennett succeeded at center the Flames maybe don't re-sign Backlund long term or Backlund is in a more ideal 3rd line shutdown role. Flames have 3 set centers in their top 9 and he's not one of them. Monahan, Backlund, Jankowski. That's falling in depth charts. I only see the Flames centers changing via UFA/trade not Bennett stepping in. That experiment is over.

He has regressed each season since his rookie season in points and status on team. 21 year old Sam Bennett has regressed from the 18 year old Sam Bennett that CBC loved so much in the 2015 playoffs. We have Dube, Mangi etc. that can fill his 3rd line winger role. This season is the last year of his show me contract and ideally he finds a spot in the top 6 as a winger. His shot and hockey IQ won't get him there though. His skating has definitely not improved but still capable.

[Ruttiger]

Originally Posted by blankall

Bennett still has all the tools to be that 60+ point tenacious centre he was predicted to be. We don't know what we have yet and just need to be patient. Either way, it makes no sense to sell low on Bennett.

I think you do know what you have - most fans just choose not to see it because they don't like the answer.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Ruttiger

I think you do know what you have - most fans just choose not to see it because they don't like the answer.

I disagree. I think you're making a judgement out of impatience, and there's ultimately no reason to make that judgement. I also think this premature judgement has also coloured a lot of perspectives on CP, and has also been made while completely ignoring the playing circumstances the player has faced.

Bennett being the only good player we've had in the bottom 6 for two straight years has made him the face of an awful bottom six. Kind of like how people turned on Iggy, even though he was the only good player we had.