Islanders (Flames') First Round Pick

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by the2bears

So if the pick turns out to be a bust, does that change anything? Does it go from a travesty to a fleecing of the Islanders?

Even if it's Dahlin, not too many 1OA defenceman have been game changers. He may well be but it's not a guarantee.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by the2bears

So if the pick turns out to be a bust, does that change anything? Does it go from a travesty to a fleecing of the Islanders?

Well, that depends also on how the second rounders and Hamonic himself do.

But, probably. See also: the Reinhart trade up north. That was a bad trade from the start, but the fact that the Islanders drafted the kid who's going to win the Calder with the pick has made it look that much worse. So, yes, the flip side would also be true if the Isles take our pick and grab the next Pavel Brendl. We will come out looking better in hindsight.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Even if it's Dahlin, not too many 1OA defenceman have been game changers. He may well be but it's not a guarantee.

Yeah I've heard the word generational attached to him. I've not seen a ton of him, but I don't view him being that at all.

[Resolute 14]

^"Generational" is so overused we almost already have to toss it in the trash heap with "franchise player", "superstar" and "star".

[FurnaceFace]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

Interesting take, except "what's real" has not happened yet, its only a "what if" if it does not happen. If the pick is inconsequential, then it becomes a "what if", we are not there yet. Your analogy does not hold yet.

My point was more thinking the scenario discussed was: what if the pick ends up top three and does that make it more terrible because we would have gotten x top prospect?

I was suggesting since we don’t have the pick there is no point stewing about what could have been because it’s not reality. I think that’s like a stage of grief isn’t it? Bargaining perhaps? Eventually it comes to acceptance.

As for the evaluation of the trade and how horrible it is, it makes sense to me to evaluate it as the three picks for player. Aaron’s argument that it was a bad trade on those grounds is valid to me. Evaluating it based on who gets selected especially if the comment includes “we could have had x prospect(s) instead of Hamonic” has always seemed to me a fools errand. It’s something which happens all the time with countless trades and I’m sure I’ve looked at various trades that way before too, but I don’t think it’s the way anyone managing a hockey team would or should.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Yeah I've heard the word generational attached to him. I've not seen a ton of him, but I don't view him being that at all.

The media loves to toss around generational when it comes to the draft. Sells subscriptions and page views. Reality is that there are very few generational talents to come along. Crosby then McDavid. Everything else along the way was meh, at best. Generational is uber special, and Dahlen ain’t Uber special.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Well, that depends also on how the second rounders and Hamonic himself do.

But, probably. See also: the Reinhart trade up north. That was a bad trade from the start, but the fact that the Islanders drafted the kid who's going to win the Calder with the pick has made it look that much worse. So, yes, the flip side would also be true if the Isles take our pick and grab the next Pavel Brendl. We will come out looking better in hindsight.

That's also a very strong case of schadenfreude, because I hate the Oilers

[iamca]

I have to think that Tre is breathing a bit easier after our pick turns out to be at number 12 overall. Not to say that it will not be a good player, but nothing like a top 3 pick.

[blender]

Originally Posted by iamca

I have to think that Tre is breathing a bit easier after our pick turns out to be at number 12 overall. Not to say that it will not be a good player, but nothing like a top 3 pick.

Everyone's breathing a little easier as no matter what way you spin it, the optics of NYI getting a top pick out of that trade are bad for the Flames.

Curiously, if the Flames had protected the pick, when would they need to decide if they wanted to protect it? In other words, do they get to wait until after the lottery to decide, or do they have to declare their intentions before the draw?

[Svartsengi]

Originally Posted by blender

Everyone's breathing a little easier as no matter what way you spin it, the optics of NYI getting a top pick out of that trade are bad for the Flames.

Curiously, if the Flames had protected the pick, when would they need to decide if they wanted to protect it? In other words, do they get to wait until after the lottery to decide, or do they have to declare their intentions before the draw?

Yes they wait until after the draw. Ottawa GM Pierre Dorion was interviewed after draft lottery with Ottawa having the 4th overall pick. He has to send either this years 1st rounder or next years 1st rounder as part of Matt Duchense trade. He indicated he will wait to see how the first 3 picks go and then inform Colorado if he will keep this years first rounder or not. He did indicate it will probably be next years first rounder that goes to Colorado.

[dino7c]

IF the Flames had protected it who knows...might be worse next season

hope not but you never know, Flames might have just given them 12 and be done with it

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Why do people think protecting the pick was an option for BT?

[Corral]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Why do people think protecting the pick was an option for BT?

Because they figure he must have had some leverage in the negotiations. its not like Calgary desperately needed a 2nd pairing Dman.

[Bunk]

I suspect a lot of people think Treliving should only have pulled the trigger on the deal in the first place if a lottery protection was there. I am one of those people - it was too risky.

[FlamesFanTrev]

Originally Posted by New Era

The media loves to toss around generational when it comes to the draft. Sells subscriptions and page views. Reality is that there are very few generational talents to come along. Crosby then McDavid. Everything else along the way was meh, at best. Generational is uber special, and Dahlen ain’t Uber special.

Yea. A generation is considered to be about 30 years. A generational player is one that comes along once in 30 years. How many have we had in 30 years? A dozen now? Maybe more? As for how some words get over-used, this has to be right up there.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Corral

Because they figure he must have had some leverage in the negotiations. its not like Calgary desperately needed a 2nd pairing Dman.

This isn't correct. He didn't have any leverage in negotiations due to not desperately needing him. He still had Toronto pushing hard, among other teams, which made his desperation level irrelevant to the price.

What he did have was the ability to walk away if the price jumped too high due to that lack of desperation. Many suggest an unprotected 1st was too high a price.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by jayswin

This isn't correct. He didn't have any leverage in negotiations due to not desperately needing him. He still had Toronto pushing hard, among other teams, which made his desperation level irrelevant to the price.

What he did have was the ability to walk away if the price jumped too high due to that lack of desperation. Many suggest an unprotected 1st was too high a price.

I suspect there were people in this division, including Edmonton, making offers. IMO Treliving guessed (incorrectly) that the Flames wouldn't be in the lottery anyway. And as a backup he guessed (correctly) that it wouldn't be a top ten pick anyway.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I suspect there were people in this division, including Edmonton, making offers. IMO Treliving guessed (incorrectly) that the Flames wouldn't be in the lottery anyway. And as a backup he guessed (correctly) that it wouldn't be a top ten pick anyway.

Haha, he would have guess (incorrectly) that it wouldn't be a lottery pick from missing the playoffs, he was banking on making it in.

Not a chance he correctly guessed that it wasn't top ten, but wasn't worried about it being number 12.

[Corral]

Originally Posted by jayswin

This isn't correct. He didn't have any leverage in negotiations due to not desperately needing him. He still had Toronto pushing hard, among other teams, which made his desperation level irrelevant to the price.

What he did have was the ability to walk away if the price jumped too high due to that lack of desperation. Many suggest an unprotected 1st was too high a price.

We are talking the same point. The ability to walk away, is very good leverage in negotiations.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Haha, he would have guess (incorrectly) that it wouldn't be a lottery pick from missing the playoffs, he was banking on making it in.

Not a chance he correctly guessed that it wasn't top ten, but wasn't worried about it being number 12.

If the Flames missed the POs, they were going to not miss it by much, meaning they'd be among the lowest chances of winning the lottery. It was a gamble, but one which played the odds.