Van hits multiple pedestrians in Toronto

[Northendzone]

man, i am learning about the seedy underbelly of society in this discussion......the part of this "event" that bothers me the most is that this guys changed the lives of 10 families, 10 people who likely had nothing to do with his life.

on some animalistic level, i can get striking out tat people who you feel who have wronged you.......

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Why are you being so defensive about this? You're coming across like a Vancouverite who, in the wake of the 2011 Stanley Cup riot, was insistent that it was all caused by a bunch of out-of-town anarchists and not "true Canuck fans".

Look, if you enjoy anime, and even if you enjoy this particular type of anime, that's fine. I'm not passing judgement on you as an individual. All I'm saying is that incels, who already have a really unhealthy view of women, find their existing negative attitudes reinforced in the communities they join (like the now-banned /r/incels) and the media they consume (like waifu anime).

Defensive? I really don't think I'm being defensive. I'm trying to discuss logical fallacies regarding a group of people who were being mired in this thread because of one type of entertainment they consume, and I've yet to be contradicted on any of my positions.

Incels may like anime. They may watch it more than your average human.

I can also bet that incels play video games more than your average human. I can also bet that they watch more porn than your average human.

That doesn't mean any of these things are inherently corrupting or perpetuating of their position.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

man, i am learning about the seedy underbelly of society in this discussion......the part of this "event" that bothers me the most is that this guys changed the lives of 10 families, 10 people who likely had nothing to do with his life.

on some animalistic level, i can get striking out tat people who you feel who have wronged you.......

I won't link it, but if you really want to get into the mindset of these people, search for and read the manifesto Eliot Rodger wrote prior to his 2014 shooting rampage.

Following the Boston Marathon bombings in 2013, Conservatives widely mocked comments made by Justin Trudeau (particularly Pierre Poilievre who infamously remarked that "the root cause of terrorism is terrorists"), but he was absolutely right when he said that the common denominator among terrorists is a feeling of exclusion and social rejection. I wonder if all those lives could have been saved if someone somewhere had recognized what was going on in the minds of Eliot Rodger and Alexandre Bissonnette and Alek Minassian and provided them with support, hope, optimism and a way forward out of their self-induced pity party (assuming they were willing to accept the help, of course). Instead, those killers found like-minded individuals in /r/incels and other similar communities where their negative views festered until they lashed out with murderous violence.

[schteve_d]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Every notice how the bigots never come back to admit they were wrong and to take ownership of their posts?

Cowards.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

I wasn't quoted in this post, but I definitely made some posts in the beginning that expressed my initial belief in the motives of the driver. I suppose that would put me in your bigot camp?

I'm here. It looks like I was wrong. I don't think it was that crazy, given past similar situations throughout the world, to at least entertain the idea that this act was religiously motivated. As it turns out, it doesn't look like it was, but I don't think the speculation was that off the wall.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Ashasx was criticizing a post made by photon in which he suggested that the type of porn a person enjoys watching says something about them as a person. It does not. There is nothing about a person's tastes in that regard that even necessarily translate to what they want in sex, much less who they are in their everyday life. I remember about a year ago on Very Bad Wizards they talked about data regarding porn preferences and noted as an example that there are plenty of straight men and women who have no interest in engaging in same-sex encounters, but who enjoy gay and lesbian porn. The video game analogy is pretty apt here - the fact that I played an FPS this weekend does not suggest that I want to go and shoot someone in the face in real life.

It's getting dangerously close to puritanical authoritarianism to suggest that any particular type of porn (provided it's done safely and ethically involving consenting adults) is inherently suspect, encourages behaviour by those that watch it or reflects some negative trait in anyone who enjoys it.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by schteve_d

I wasn't quoted in this post, but I definitely made some posts in the beginning that expressed my initial belief in the motives of the driver. I suppose that would put me in your bigot camp?

I'm here. It looks like I was wrong. I don't think it was that crazy, given past similar situations throughout the world, to at least entertain the idea that this act was religiously motivated. As it turns out, it doesn't look like it was, but I don't think the speculation was that off the wall.

And it certainly doesn't make you a bigot either.

[CaptainCrunch]

https://twitter.com/user/status/988836389344239616

https://twitter.com/user/status/988836644802519041

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I won't link it, but if you really want to get into the mindset of these people, search for and read the manifesto Eliot Rodger wrote prior to his 2014 shooting rampage.

Following the Boston Marathon bombings in 2013, Conservatives widely mocked comments made by Justin Trudeau (particularly Pierre Poilievre who infamously remarked that "the root cause of terrorism is terrorists"), but he was absolutely right when he said that the common denominator among terrorists is a feeling of exclusion and social rejection. I wonder if all those lives could have been saved if someone somewhere had recognized what was going on in the minds of Eliot Rodger and Alexandre Bissonnette and Alek Minassian and provided them with support, hope, optimism and a way forward out of their self-induced pity party (assuming they were willing to accept the help, of course). Instead, those killers found like-minded individuals in /r/incels and other similar communities where their negative views festered until they lashed out with murderous violence.

Everybody is looking for something.
Maybe even looking for help.
That which doesn't help is easy to find, and probably easier to grab onto.

[dobbles]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Ashasx was criticizing a post made by photon in which he suggested that the type of porn a person enjoys watching says something about them as a person. It does not. There is nothing about a person's tastes in that regard that even necessarily translate to what they want in sex, much less who they are in their everyday life. I remember about a year ago on Very Bad Wizards they talked about data regarding porn preferences and noted as an example that there are plenty of straight men and women who have no interest in engaging in same-sex encounters, but who enjoy gay and lesbian porn. The video game analogy is pretty apt here - the fact that I played an FPS this weekend does not suggest that I want to go and shoot someone in the face in real life.

It's getting dangerously close to puritanical authoritarianism to suggest that any particular type of porn (provided it's done safely and ethically involving consenting adults) is inherently suspect, encourages behaviour by those that watch it or reflects some negative trait in anyone who enjoys it.

Perhaps its just the phrasing or word choices, but I also got the impression that Ashasx was getting rather defensive. And I have absolutely no dog in this fight. I didn't even know what an incel or waifu was until like 10 minutes ago. His posts just felt an awful lot like trying to put down anyone who disagreed with him because they didn't appropriately understand all the complexity of anime. And in doing so disregarded any ability for someone to just disagree with his arguments.


On topic, sorry to see Canada deal with these issues. First Humboldt and now this. One of the great values this forum brings to me personally is it is a large group of non Americans that I can watch discuss issues that are important to me. Too often the tragedies discussed on this board occur in the states and you guys offer that outside perspective. Sorry to see such bad things happening north or the border now.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

While I'm not going to post links from my work PC, I'd like to chime in that there is a sub-set of incels that promote "2D" women over "3D" women, non-ironically.

What does this mean? What are 2D women? What do you mean promote?

I'm not being obtuse, this entire subculture is something I heard about 24 hours ago.

[burn_this_city]

I think its cartoon women are better than real women.

[snootchiebootchies]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I won't link it, but if you really want to get into the mindset of these people, search for and read the manifesto Eliot Rodger wrote prior to his 2014 shooting rampage.

Following the Boston Marathon bombings in 2013, Conservatives widely mocked comments made by Justin Trudeau (particularly Pierre Poilievre who infamously remarked that "the root cause of terrorism is terrorists"), but he was absolutely right when he said that the common denominator among terrorists is a feeling of exclusion and social rejection. I wonder if all those lives could have been saved if someone somewhere had recognized what was going on in the minds of Eliot Rodger and Alexandre Bissonnette and Alek Minassian and provided them with support, hope, optimism and a way forward out of their self-induced pity party (assuming they were willing to accept the help, of course). Instead, those killers found like-minded individuals in /r/incels and other similar communities where their negative views festered until they lashed out with murderous violence.

I read the manifesto and was pretty disturbed by it. The one thing I took away from it was how narcissistic and entitled Rodger was. Seemed to me like his parents loved him and spoiled him but whatever they provided was never enough. I was really struck by the parts of the manifesto where both his father and mother (divorced early in his life) had financial difficulties during different parts of his life and he considered those events to be a personal slight, and could only focus on how those hardships affected his life, with no consideration how it affected his parents or his siblings. And he had an amazing memory, allowing him to remember every personal slight and insult all the way back to his childhood years, no matter how small, and he nurtured them and allowed them to fester. Add to that he was very shy and socially awkward, which compounded the problem even more.

I'm not sure how much more his mom and dad could have done. I think they clearly knew their son had problems because they sent him to counselling, and his mom continued to set up play dates for him until his mid-teens, and his father even sent him on a trip to France to spend time with a friend and get him out of the house and where, even according to Rodger, he had a great time. Maybe they should have set him up with a prostitute, so he could see that sex was really no big deal?

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by dobbles

Perhaps its just the phrasing or word choices, but I also got the impression that Ashasx was getting rather defensive. And I have absolutely no dog in this fight. I didn't even know what an incel or waifu was until like 10 minutes ago. His posts just felt an awful lot like trying to put down anyone who disagreed with him because they didn't appropriately understand all the complexity of anime. And in doing so disregarded any ability for someone to just disagree with his arguments.

I don't think I put anyone down, but please highlight it if I did.

All I'm trying to say is that admonishing against somebody who likes anime is akin to saying the same for somebody who like Game of Thrones or Riverdale or virtually any other form of entertainment. It doesn't make sense.

[dobbles]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I don't think I put anyone down, but please highlight it if I did.

All I'm trying to say is that admonishing against somebody who likes anime is akin to saying the same for somebody who like Game of Thrones or Riverdale or virtually any other form of entertainment. It doesn't make sense.

I think it was in post 250 where you said people were trying to talk about things they don't understand that I was recalling mostly. It wasn't a direct insult to anyone specifically, but more of a "you're only arguing with me because you are too stupid to understand what I'm saying" type of comment. Just felt condescending to me. Nothing particularly terrible, it's just a tactic that gets used way too much down here in the states in regards to politics, so I am probably pretty defensive about it.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I don't think I put anyone down, but please highlight it if I did.

All I'm trying to say is that admonishing against somebody who likes anime is akin to saying the same for somebody who like Game of Thrones or Riverdale or virtually any other form of entertainment. It doesn't make sense.

To be clear, I'm not admonishing anyone who likes anime (I enjoy some anime myself, particularly Studio Ghibli films). I'm not even admonishing anyone who likes this particular type of anime, even though it's admittedly not my taste. My point is that incels as a group (although not every individual, obviously) collectively enjoy a subgenre of anime that reinforces an unrealistic worldview they already possess where women are expected to be completely subservient to their boyfriends and not have any agency of their own.

By the same token, if someone was a fan of Game of Thrones and was especially into the scenes where Joffrey and Ramsey physically and/or sexually abuse some of the female characters, that would certainly raise a red flag to me about their attitudes towards women.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

It's getting dangerously close to puritanical authoritarianism to suggest that any particular type of porn (provided it's done safely and ethically involving consenting adults) is inherently suspect, encourages behaviour by those that watch it or reflects some negative trait in anyone who enjoys it.

Don't make the mistake of putting the politics before the science. There's some pretty strong science out there around the negative consequences of prolonged exposure to porn. Especially in young men. Turns out thousands of hours of watching explicit sexual images, most of them unhealthy and unrealistic depictions of sex, before you've even had any healthy sexual experiences yourself can mess up your expectations and norms. The fact some puritans might use that as a way to restrict freedom doesn't make it any less true.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by schteve_d

I wasn't quoted in this post, but I definitely made some posts in the beginning that expressed my initial belief in the motives of the driver. I suppose that would put me in your bigot camp?

I'm here. It looks like I was wrong. I don't think it was that crazy, given past similar situations throughout the world, to at least entertain the idea that this act was religiously motivated. As it turns out, it doesn't look like it was, but I don't think the speculation was that off the wall.

Then why not proactively address your original post and with something like "It looks like I jumped the gun here", acknowledging that your assumption was wrong?

If you blamed a person or a group and you were wrong, shouldn't you own it, or walk it back?

[schteve_d]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Then why not proactively address your original post and with something like "It looks like I jumped the gun here", acknowledging that your assumption was wrong?

If you blamed a person or a group and you were wrong, shouldn't you own it, or walk it back?

Sorry ISIS.


Isn't that what I did:

Originally Posted by schteve_d

I wasn't quoted in this post, but I definitely made some posts in the beginning that expressed my initial belief in the motives of the driver. I suppose that would put me in your bigot camp?

I'm here. It looks like I was wrong. I don't think it was that crazy, given past similar situations throughout the world, to at least entertain the idea that this act was religiously motivated. As it turns out, it doesn't look like it was, but I don't think the speculation was that off the wall.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

To be clear, I'm not admonishing anyone who likes anime (I enjoy some anime myself, particularly Studio Ghibli films). I'm not even admonishing anyone who likes this particular type of anime, even though it's admittedly not my taste. My point is that incels as a group (although not every individual, obviously) collectively enjoy a subgenre of anime that reinforces an unrealistic worldview they already possess where women are expected to be completely subservient to their boyfriends and not have any agency of their own.

By the same token, if someone was a fan of Game of Thrones and was especially into the scenes where Joffrey and Ramsey physically and/or sexually abuse some of the female characters, that would certainly raise a red flag to me about their attitudes towards women.

Then I guess I simply don't understand the argument that is being made.

Yes, I'm sure some pretty backwards anime exist where women are treated like chattel, or they are waifus, etc. Yes, hentai exists. This is all essentially pornography. It's taboo for that reason.

But what does this have to do with anime specifically? We see these things in western entertainment as well. We also have our pornography. We also have our unrealistic female characters.

I guess I don't understand why "anime" is singled out here when you can point to so many aspects that are shared by what we think of as an incel.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I guess I don't understand why "anime" is singled out here when you can point to so many aspects that are shared by what we think of as an incel.

Because one of the common characteristics of incels as a group is that they have a fondness for that subgenre of anime. It's a noteworthy correlation (not a causation!) in the same sense that there's a known correlation between serial killers and people who abuse animals, for example. There's a very heavy overlap of the Venn diagram circles of "Is an incel", "Enjoys waifu anime", and "Has unrealistic expectations of women".