AltaGuy has a magnetic personality and exudes positive energy, which is infectious to those around him. He has an unparalleled ability to communicate with people, whether he is speaking to a room of three or an arena of 30,000.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: At le pub...
Exp:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen
Sure, that's one way. But the issue was the very first part. Public place. The men wouldn't leave to a public place when asked. They decided that they would stay in the private establishment.
And what facts do they need to find out? Did you think the manager was going to be stupid enough to tell the officers they wanted them out for being black? They probably said that the men didn't order, were rude and asked to leave. Not that it really matters, they have the right to remove anyone from their establishment. It's really up to the courts to decide if it's discrimination, not the police.
Imagine in a different scenario if two men were asked to leave for sexual harassment of a server, and when police got there they claimed that they were being asked to leave because they were white/brown/Muslim/disabled/transgendered/any-other-protected-class, should the police just let them stay in that private establishment? No, they only know one true fact and that the men are trespassing. Diffuse the situation by asking them to leave, and then let them know of other actions they could take if they really did believe they were being discriminated against. But once they refuse to leave, arresting them to get them off the premise is the only recourse the police have.
You're asking for the police to turn a blind eye to a crime in process. Come on now.
Nah, I’m just asking them to have some common sense like they have with my batty old neighbour. “Turning a blind eye to a crime in progress” sounds as if I’m asking for anarchy and lawlessness, or maybe human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria.
I once landed in Miami after spending the last six or so weeks at a mine, cabbed to my hotel and showered. I put on some 'fresh' clothes and realized I only had clothes suitable for a jungle, not South Beach, so I grabbed a cab to the mall.
I was fairly quickly interrupted by two security guards who wanted to escort me out of the mall - they thought I was homeless and had no business in the mall. They even went through my backpack in case I stole something. My aunt who met me there has teased me since.
Humans are very good at stereotyping and confirmation bias. It really is something in all of us and takes effort to push beyond it. We do this all the time based on appearance, attractiveness, race, age and countless other features.
The Starbucks situation should be a real eye opener for all of us.
Nah, I’m just asking them to have some common sense like they have with my batty old neighbour. “Turning a blind eye to a crime in progress” sounds as if I’m asking for anarchy and lawlessness, or maybe human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria.
What common sense? Common sense, police policy and the law would dictate removing a trespasser from private property.
You're essentially asking the police to overlook private property rights and not to enforce the law. That is anarchy dude.
AltaGuy has a magnetic personality and exudes positive energy, which is infectious to those around him. He has an unparalleled ability to communicate with people, whether he is speaking to a room of three or an arena of 30,000.
What common sense? Common sense, police policy and the law would dictate removing a trespasser from private property.
You're essentially asking the police to overlook private property rights and not to enforce the law. That is anarchy dude.
So if elderly parents went into a Starbucks because your Mother had to use a washroom and was refused, then sat down to rest for 2 minutes without ordering; you'd have no issue with the police being called or them being hauled off for trespassing?
Did you accidentally or intentionally miss in the article where they said there was a white women who had not ordered anything.
Also Starbucks is widely known as a place you can come to hangout.
Do you have any evidence to support your belief that this wasn't because they were black? You are right that if this employee kicked out every non-paying customer and called the police on them that would not be racist. What leads you to believe this is the case?
What would lead me to believe this is not the case? Can you provide any evidence?
I can not, neither can you. Must be a hate crime!
Now I am a racist here lol.
A white chick spent two hours at starbucks and bought nothing. Was she dealing with the same person? We dont know! If she was its definitely racist. Yet that has not been asked here.
I have worked in restaurants for much longer than I would like to admit. At times customers get kicked out of restaurants. Police are called at times.
White or Black I kick these people out, when they refuse to leave I call the cops.
I fully admit this could be a racist act. Yet there is no proof saying this.
Provide me proof this was a hate crime, then I fully support the other side.
I get many of you are not business owners here. I dont want non paying customers at my work site. That is not a racist issue.
Guys came to a business and bought nothing, refused to buy anything. They were asked to leave. What happens after that is on them.
I dont get it people say!I am absolutely racist about non paying customers.
How much money did these guy spend at Starbucks? Not a dime!
This is not a hate crime. Just bad customers.
I dont get it? So are doctors and lawyers telling me how restaurants should run without ever being in that enviroment. Definately some accountants here too.
I get that this could be a racist issue. Yet it does not sound like one. I get Black lives matter. The media reports all kinds of things.
Two guys were arrested at starbucks for sitting at the front of the bus! This is not that. I respect the woman sitting at the front of the bus.
I ask if it is racist to kick non paying customers out of a private business?
I see no way in hell that this is not legal to do.
I dont care about starbucks, just my restaurant back ground. Customers come in and wont buy anything. I ask them to leave. They wont leave I call the cops.
Nothing racist about this.
For those that dont believe? Do that at a restaurant in Calgary. Refuse to leave and buy nothing. You will meet the police and be arrested.
I dont care what race or religion you follow. You will be arrested. The guys in question were arrested. Do the same thing at your local coffee hole. You will be arrested too.
This is not a black or white issue, just two guys being idiots.
Buy a coffee and this is not an issue. A dollar for a coffee, and here at CP it is racial wars. Why should a black man be forced to buy a coffee at the coffee house he entered?
Grab a brain. Bash me all you want.
Non paying customer was asked to leave! Race has nothing to do with this.
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I see nothing wrong with what the Starbucks employee did, or what the police did. Non paying customers were idiots.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chubeyr1
I fully admit this could be a racist act. Yet there is no proof saying this.
Provide me proof this was a hate crime, then I fully support the other side.
I ask if it is racist to kick non paying customers out of a private business?
Quite the rant there
You seem to walk back your oringal post a bit here. If this could be a racist act then how can you see nothing wrong with what the Starbucks employee did?
You ask for proof? What standard of proof are you looking for. For me it's balance of probabilities. We have a women who video taped the arrest saying the men did nothing to be disruptive. Starbucks as a corporation is known for trying to be a community hub. No random white people have started a#MeToo about being kicked out of Starbucks.
On balance of probabilities I find that Starbucks does not kick out non-disruptive non paying customers.
On balance of probabilities I find that these men were not being disruptive.
Ergo they should have not been asked to leave. Unless there is some other piece of evidence out there was no reason for the person to ask them to be removed.
No one is saying kicking non paying customers out is racist.
What would lead me to believe this is not the case? Can you provide any evidence?
I can not, neither can you. Must be a hate crime!
Now I am a racist here lol.
A white chick spent two hours at starbucks and bought nothing. Was she dealing with the same person? We dont know! If she was its definitely racist. Yet that has not been asked here.
I have worked in restaurants for much longer than I would like to admit. At times customers get kicked out of restaurants. Police are called at times.
White or Black I kick these people out, when they refuse to leave I call the cops.
I fully admit this could be a racist act. Yet there is no proof saying this.
Provide me proof this was a hate crime, then I fully support the other side.
I get many of you are not business owners here. I dont want non paying customers at my work site. That is not a racist issue.
Guys came to a business and bought nothing, refused to buy anything. They were asked to leave. What happens after that is on them.
I dont get it people say!I am absolutely racist about non paying customers.
How much money did these guy spend at Starbucks? Not a dime!
This is not a hate crime. Just bad customers.
I dont get it? So are doctors and lawyers telling me how restaurants should run without ever being in that enviroment. Definately some accountants here too.
I get that this could be a racist issue. Yet it does not sound like one. I get Black lives matter. The media reports all kinds of things.
Two guys were arrested at starbucks for sitting at the front of the bus! This is not that. I respect the woman sitting at the front of the bus.
I ask if it is racist to kick non paying customers out of a private business?
I see no way in hell that this is not legal to do.
I dont care about starbucks, just my restaurant back ground. Customers come in and wont buy anything. I ask them to leave. They wont leave I call the cops.
Nothing racist about this.
For those that dont believe? Do that at a restaurant in Calgary. Refuse to leave and buy nothing. You will meet the police and be arrested.
I dont care what race or religion you follow. You will be arrested. The guys in question were arrested. Do the same thing at your local coffee hole. You will be arrested too.
This is not a black or white issue, just two guys being idiots.
Buy a coffee and this is not an issue. A dollar for a coffee, and here at CP it is racial wars. Why should a black man be forced to buy a coffee at the coffee house he entered?
Grab a brain. Bash me all you want.
Non paying customer was asked to leave! Race has nothing to do with this.
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What would lead me to believe this is not the case? Can you provide any evidence?
I can not, neither can you. Must be a hate crime!
Now I am a racist here lol.
A white chick spent two hours at starbucks and bought nothing. Was she dealing with the same person? We dont know! If she was its definitely racist. Yet that has not been asked here.
I have worked in restaurants for much longer than I would like to admit. At times customers get kicked out of restaurants. Police are called at times.
White or Black I kick these people out, when they refuse to leave I call the cops.
I fully admit this could be a racist act. Yet there is no proof saying this.
Provide me proof this was a hate crime, then I fully support the other side.
I get many of you are not business owners here. I dont want non paying customers at my work site. That is not a racist issue.
Guys came to a business and bought nothing, refused to buy anything. They were asked to leave. What happens after that is on them.
I dont get it people say!I am absolutely racist about non paying customers.
How much money did these guy spend at Starbucks? Not a dime!
This is not a hate crime. Just bad customers.
I dont get it? So are doctors and lawyers telling me how restaurants should run without ever being in that enviroment. Definately some accountants here too.
I get that this could be a racist issue. Yet it does not sound like one. I get Black lives matter. The media reports all kinds of things.
Two guys were arrested at starbucks for sitting at the front of the bus! This is not that. I respect the woman sitting at the front of the bus.
I ask if it is racist to kick non paying customers out of a private business?
I see no way in hell that this is not legal to do.
I dont care about starbucks, just my restaurant back ground. Customers come in and wont buy anything. I ask them to leave. They wont leave I call the cops.
Nothing racist about this.
For those that dont believe? Do that at a restaurant in Calgary. Refuse to leave and buy nothing. You will meet the police and be arrested.
I dont care what race or religion you follow. You will be arrested. The guys in question were arrested. Do the same thing at your local coffee hole. You will be arrested too.
This is not a black or white issue, just two guys being idiots.
Buy a coffee and this is not an issue. A dollar for a coffee, and here at CP it is racial wars. Why should a black man be forced to buy a coffee at the coffee house he entered?
Grab a brain. Bash me all you want.
Non paying customer was asked to leave! Race has nothing to do with this.
What in the hell happened here? It's like a Donald Trump tweet creating bot glitched out and just kept going.
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What would lead me to believe this is not the case? Can you provide any evidence? I can not, neither can you. Must be a hate crime!
Now I am a racist here lol.
A white chick spent two hours at Starbucks and bought nothing. Was she dealing with the same person? We don't know! If she was it's definitely racist. Yet that has not been asked here.
I have worked in restaurants for much longer than I would like to admit. At times customers get kicked out of restaurants. Police are called at times. White or Black I kick these people out, when they refuse to leave I call the cops.
I fully admit this could be a racist act. Yet there is no proof saying this. Provide me proof this was a hate crime, then I fully support the other side. I get many of you are not business owners here. I don't want non paying customers at my work site. That is not a racist issue.
Guys came to a business and bought nothing, refused to buy anything. They were asked to leave. What happens after that is on them. I dont get it people say!I am absolutely racist about non paying customers. How much money did these guy spend at Starbucks? Not a dime!
This is not a hate crime. Just bad customers. I don't get it? So are doctors and lawyers telling me how restaurants should run without ever being in that environment. Definitely some accountants here too.
I get that this could be a racist issue. Yet it does not sound like one. I get Black lives matter. The media reports all kinds of things. Two guys were arrested at Starbucks for sitting at the front of the bus! This is not that. I respect the woman sitting at the front of the bus.
I ask if it is racist to kick non paying customers out of a private business? I see no way in hell that this is not legal to do. I don't care about Starbucks, just my restaurant back ground. Customers come in and wont buy anything. I ask them to leave. They wont leave I call the cops. Nothing racist about this.
For those that don't believe? Do that at a restaurant in Calgary. Refuse to leave and buy nothing. You will meet the police and be arrested. I don't care what race or religion you follow. You will be arrested. The guys in question were arrested. Do the same thing at your local coffee hole. You will be arrested too. This is not a black or white issue, just two guys being idiots.
Buy a coffee and this is not an issue. A dollar for a coffee, and here at CP it is racial wars. Why should a black man be forced to buy a coffee at the coffee house he entered? Grab a brain. Bash me all you want. Non paying customer was asked to leave! Race has nothing to do with this.
Paragraphs are your friend. As is punctuation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayswin
What in the hell happened here? It's like a Donald Trump tweet creating bot glitched out and just kept going.
Or Springs1's weird brother...
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Non paying customer was asked to leave! Race has nothing to do with this.
How many times do we have to spell out for you bud:
There were other (white) customers at that Starbucks that had not ordered anything either and were just sitting there going about their business. They were not asked to leave.
Try and get that through your thick skull.
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I "don't get Starbucks" and cannot understand why so many go there just to "hang out". I guess it's just like we use "cruise main" back in small town Brooks but that's neither here nor there. There are just a lot of questions that I have not seen answered with this incident.
Why were these guys arrested? And why did they not leave whe the police asked them to how many times were they asked to leave? I'm no law professor but is trespassing a criminal offence or is it just a fine? Were they just detained ( I watch Live PD) or were they actually arrested and charged with a criminal offence?
__________________
The only thing better then a glass of beer is tea with Ms McGill
So if elderly parents went into a Starbucks because your Mother had to use a washroom and was refused, then sat down to rest for 2 minutes without ordering; you'd have no issue with the police being called or them being hauled off for trespassing?
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I'm not sure if you're being intentionally obtuse or have just misread my posts. But I've made it abundantly clear that I did have an issue with the police being called in this scenario as I would in your scenario. At no point did I argue that the Starbucks employee was right to call the police, in fact I've argued the exact opposite.
However, once the cops show up 20 minutes later asking my parents to leave and they still refuse to do so, I mean, yeah there's not much the police can do except get them off the premise through arresting them.
On balance of probabilities I find that Starbucks does not kick out non-disruptive non paying customers.
This is precisely what the coffee shop business is built upon. They encourage loitering and try to get people to hang out and stay for long periods. Starbucks was literally the first business to offer free wifi in 2001 when most people were still dragging around Ethernet cables. Other chains like Subway and McDonald's design their stores in ways that make you want to slit your wrists rather than stay there thirty seconds longer than necessary. Subway even tried to copy Starbucks by building Subway Cafes....you take down the no loitering signs, unlock the bathrooms and dim the horrible horrible lights.
Starbucks knows they're not making money on every laptop hobo but in Seattle in 1990 that culture grew up, got rich fast and turned into loyal, paying customers.
If you search a bit you can find lots of articles about people getting kicked out of Starbucks for loitering. Or just being made to feel uncomfortable for not buying enough to justify their existence. When you have 25k stores you have a lot of beds to make and sleep in as well.
My favorite related story is my friends rom Toronto who was staying at the Westin in Calgary on a business trip. She was dressed wel, smoking, standing outside waiting for a cab and the doorman asked her to "take her business elsewhere" thinking she was s prostitute.
However, once the cops show up 20 minutes later asking my parents to leave and they still refuse to do so, I mean, yeah there's not much the police can do except get them off the premise through arresting them.
That's an aspect not being looked at, either. At any point, if someone asked to leave does so before the cops get there, it's no big deal. If the business notices/calls police to say they've gone, police won't show up. If the police show up and the people are gone, they don't go looking for them, they just move on to the next call.
How many times do we have to spell out for you bud:
There were other (white) customers at that Starbucks that had not ordered anything either and were just sitting there going about their business. They were not asked to leave.
Try and get that through your thick skull.
This argument isn't telling of the whole story though. This employee didn't go to the table and kick them out, they asked to use the washroom and were told they must purchase an item.
Now because there is no video or full explanation, let's review the scenarios that could have unfolded.
1. Two black men ask to use washrooms, are told Starbucks rules, say thank you and go sit back down politely, and are then asked to leave. Completely racist by that employee (UNLESS they also do that to white customers. This employee could be a rule enforcer and just likes the power, etc) and got aware to these 2 people when they came up to use washroom and hadn't purchased anything. It's not like employees are walking around the store usually at Starbucks, they are behind the counter.
2. Two black men ask to use washrooms, are told Starbucks rules, and make a stink about it (I would too if I had to use the washroom) Argue about the policy, etc, etc. Are asked to leave. Refuse. Police called. 2 men wait for 20 minutes instead of leaving, get arrested.
Judging by the fact they waited 20 minutes after knowing the police were coming to arrest them, to make a point, I'm guessing when they were told they had to purchase an item, they also wanted to 'make a point'
So this may be racist, but it may also be a case of a rule that is only enforce when someone is a pain in the ass.
The argument of 'other people were doing it' is always the worst, because the scenario usually isn't a mirror image. Sitting and minding your own business in Starbucks and not ordering isn't the same as trying to use the washroom and not purchasing an item, and the aftermath of this conversation/situation.
If this was 2 white teenagers with tattoos, colorful hair, and piercings it would be a non-story, even though discrimination would/could have existed in that scenario.
To me the entire story is "One Starbucks employee created a non optimal business optic by enforcing the corporate rules to a T, and Starbucks is having a day of training to ensure employees realize the optics of certain actions"
The argument of 'other people were doing it' is always the worst, because the scenario usually isn't a mirror image. Sitting and minding your own business in Starbucks and not ordering isn't the same as trying to use the washroom and not purchasing an item, and the aftermath of this conversation/situation.
According to reports, two different white “customers” were given the washroom code without purchase within the same hour as the black men who were refused and asked to leave.
So there is an element of “mirror image” here, i think that’s the issue. If you have a policy, enforce it equally across the board. If you make exceptions, ensure your exceptions aren’t based on the colour of one’s skin.
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According to reports, two different white “customers” were given the washroom code without purchase within the same hour as the black men who were refused and asked to leave.
So there is an element of “mirror image” here, i think that’s the issue. If you have a policy, enforce it equally across the board. If you make exceptions, ensure your exceptions aren’t based on the colour of one’s skin.
Agreed, but thy haven’t said it was the same employee.
Most employees probably just give the key to anyone asking and aren’t auditing the purchase to washroom requirement.
This one employee could be racist, or they could be like this to all patrons who ask them.
Like I said above, the training is really an optics seminar vs a Starbucks is racist seminar
Oh, yeah, I don’t think this situation is in any way an indictment on Starbucks. I don’t really even see a lot of backlash directed to the company itself, more to the store/employees.
Oh, yeah, I don’t think this situation is in any way an indictment on Starbucks. I don’t really even see a lot of backlash directed to the company itself, more to the store/employees.
And of course there was a huge amount calling for a boycott when the video was first posted with #boycottstarbucks. Starbucks did a lot to get ahead of the PR nightmare, but even then there's been quite the backlash.
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