[POLL] Calgary Flames coaching change mega-thread—with poll

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I don’t insist he is terrible. Just very, very confused that Tre would stick his neck out on someone who looks like a lateral move.

You say this, and yet at every turn have strongly resisted the dozens of perfectly competent rationalizations other posers have had to offer. If you are still confused, that's on you.

In the end, I suppose we are given choice as to what we will choose to believe: IF Treliving ends up hiring Bill Peters each of us must conclude that either...

1. He is sticking his neck out on this hire because Peters has impressed him as a candidate and he is convinced of his ability to turn this group into a perennial playoff performer.

or...

2. He is sticking his neck out foolishly on this hire because deep down he does not know what he is doing, and can't see and understand the situation with his team nearly as clearly as many posters here on CP.

I will say it again. I trust Treliving's judgment in hockey matters a hell of a lot more than I trust anyone's here.

[DeluxeMoustache]

^ I think we both believe it is number 1. I just can’t see why.

You are correct, the competent rationalizations of people you trust a hell of a lot less than Treliving haven’t gotten me over the hump.

[GranteedEV]

I find it almost hilarious that Carolina and Calgary were 6th and 7th on these MoneyPuck rankings:

http://moneypuck.com/power.htm

This is gonna be the most lateral move in the history of ever, isn't it?

[Redrum]

Was just thinking about this tonight. Gullickson's system totally neutered Brodie's skating. Also he's one of those effortless skaters kind of like Niedermayer. He doesn't really look that fast until he's flying by someone.

[Red]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

You mean the guy with <160 games of NHL coaching experience, yet who holds the record for coaching wins in the WHL and has, subsequently, only ever been asked to coached internationall at the U20 and U18 levels, where he’s had a ton of success?

Seems like a good choice for Hockey Canada too.

Thing with Peters, though, is unlike Hay, he’s actually been asked to coach tournaments with grown men and bonafide NHL players in them—repeatedly.

Are we going to start saying that Hockey Canada doesn’t know what they’re doing either? That they’re just grabbing magic beans?

So you are comfortable with him coaching a bunch of millionaiers for 100 + games in a season? Thats the difference between international hockey and the NHL.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

If you wait too long, you end up having to fish around for the next up and coming coach, but you also risk getting a Gulutzan.

I'm not in a huge rush personally to find out who the next coach will be, but I don't think it would be wise to wait too long.

I generally agree with your post. But I find it hard to invoke "too long" when Tre just fired his head coach on Tuesday (!) and given most playoff teams are still in action. And I think good coach candidates would act rationally in the open market: they would interview broadly to find the best fit / best bid rather than panic buy immediately to a new team. So for multiple reasons, I don't think we're anywhere near "too long" territory.

To be clear, I have no informed opinion on Peters, so I don't pretend to be for or against his hiring in any way. I'm simply bothered by the fact that no one else will have been interviewed by the time the rumoured Peters hiring is complete (if true). And admittedly I'm a bit surprised that most on the board don't seem too alarmed by the "process" if, indeed, we hire the next coach as quickly as rumoured.

[Mr.Coffee]

Whatever coach it is I just hope they activate the Defense with frequency because our Defense seems to be where many of our strong skaters and solid players are. How Gulutzan and crew decided that slowing the play down and not playing a fast transition game with this roster and d corps is borderline idiotic.

Activating the D will create more speed off the rush and create more offensive chances, something the team really, really, really struggled with. I’m not talking about muffins from the outside I mean true chances with odd man rushes, plus we have strong skating d that are suited for it.

[Go_Flames4ever]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

If an organisation like Hockey Canada puts faith in Bill Peters over and over, I think that’s a sterling indication of his potential. Will he reach it? Maybe not, but it’s there.

I find it kind of funny seeing the glowing endorsement of Peters being picked by Hockey Canada to being on their coaching staff 3 out of the last 4 years for the World Hockey Championships.

Is it really an accomplishment in that sense? Isn't this the tournament of all the non-playoff teams and players from early playoff exit teams?

So isn't it saying that you're not really successful in the NHL for the past few years to be included in the coaching staff that many times.

For the World Cup team - yes he was an assistant, but they had 4 assistants on that staff, albeit good successful coaches nonetheless. He was also a Babcock's assistant not long before this, so there could just be a familiarity there for Babcock.

I just feel if Peters is the choice then yeah, I'll wait and see. But really, my confidence in Treliving's process and vision has definitely wavered quite a bit with how the last time his handpicked guy worked out. His stubbornness in sticking with this vision may cost our franchise of the prime years of our core.

But time will tell.

[Stupid]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

You say this, and yet at every turn have strongly resisted the dozens of perfectly competent rationalizations other posers have had to offer. If you are still confused, that's on you.

In the end, I suppose we are given choice as to what we will choose to believe: IF Treliving ends up hiring Bill Peters each of us must conclude that either...

1. He is sticking his neck out on this hire because Peters has impressed him as a candidate and he is convinced of his ability to turn this group into a perennial playoff performer.

or...

2. He is sticking his neck out foolishly on this hire because deep down he does not know what he is doing, and can't see and understand the situation with his team nearly as clearly as many posters here on CP.

I will say it again. I trust Treliving's judgment in hockey matters a hell of a lot more than I trust anyone's here.

This is an appeal to authority logical fallacy.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I will say it again. I trust Treliving's judgment in hockey matters a hell of a lot more than I trust anyone's here.

Did you trust Feaster the same way? Or
Button? Did you trust Button'a judgement on Savard for Zainullin trade a hell lot more than anyone's here? Did you trust Tre's judgment when he signed Raymond? Did you trust Tre's judgement when he bought out Raymond? How about posters, who were telling that Brouwer is going to be a disaster? How about posters who were saying that Gulutzan hire is going to be horrendous?

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I will say it again. I trust Treliving's judgment in hockey matters a hell of a lot more than I trust anyone's here.

Then why post in this thread at all, no opinions here will measure up to your standards.

[btimbit]

Are there any reasons for disliking a Peters hire or is it just that he hasn't won any cups? The more I read about him the more I'm starting to like him, and I'm starting to see a lot of Hurricanes fans on Reddit and HF come out to say we'd be getting a good coach.

Wondering where the hate is coming from other than a fear of him liking analytics and structure reminding people of Gulutzan.

Just curious, I'm not about to start praising this potential move until I learn more so just want to know where the hate is comingfrom

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Are there any reasons for disliking a Peters hire or is it just that he hasn't won any cups? The more I read about him the more I'm starting to like him, and I'm starting to see a lot of Hurricanes fans on Reddit and HF come out to say we'd be getting a good coach.

Wondering where the hate is coming from other than a fear of him liking analytics and structure reminding people of Gulutzan.

Just curious, I'm not about to start praising this potential move until I learn more so just want to know where the hate is comingfrom

Sure, and are there any reasons for thinking he is a good hiring option?

Don’t introduce emotional terms like hate. Maybe try confusion. Or flabbergastedness, if that is a word

The Canes didn’t improve in terms of standings under his watch
It’s not cups. He has never made the playoffs

Again, it is not proof of success, it is failure and excuses and hope
Sutter for example has had tremendous success in his last two stops in very different circumstances

Forget the context and ask the simple version of the question

Scenario A - you have a guy you introduced in to two problem situations, he quickly made an immediate and positive impact and in one case even won the ultimate prize twice

Scenario B - you have a guy you introduce in to a problem situation. He doesn’t improve from the previous coach’s results, spends 4 years and doesn’t improve the results during that time. Doesn’t finish in the top half of the league or even make the playoffs.

How do you actually add in enough information to make B preferable to A?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Are there any reasons for disliking a Peters hire or is it just that he hasn't won any cups? The more I read about him the more I'm starting to like him, and I'm starting to see a lot of Hurricanes fans on Reddit and HF come out to say we'd be getting a good coach.

Wondering where the hate is coming from other than a fear of him liking analytics and structure reminding people of Gulutzan.

Just curious, I'm not about to start praising this potential move until I learn more so just want to know where the hate is comingfrom

The biggest concern I see is that his teams have finished, respectively, 29th, 28th, 20th, 28th in shooting percentage. For reference the teams in the playoffs this year finished:


Tampa - 1st
Washington - 2nd
Colorado - 3rd
Winnipeg - 4th
Toronto - 5th
Minnesota - 6th
Vegas - 8th
Nashville - 9th
Boston - 10th
Pittsburgh - 11th
Philadelphia - 12th
Anaheim - 13th
L.A. - 14th
New Jersey - 15th
San Jose - 16th
Columbus - 22nd

So is SH% a controllable factor or not? Because New York Islanders and Columbus Blue Jackets were the only outliers to miss/make the playoffs.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Are there any reasons for disliking a Peters hire or is it just that he hasn't won any cups?

He has only had one successful season as a head coach and that was a decade ago in the WHL.

In the 10 years since, he has 3 years as an AHL head coach, 3 years as an NHL assistant, and 4 years as an NHL head coach. In those 10 seasons, his teams have advanced past the first round of the playoffs once (2013 as an assistant in Detroit), and missed the playoffs 5 times (including each of his four seasons as the head coach in Carolina).

The Hurricanes are one of only 3 teams in the NHL to have missed the playoffs in each of the last four seasons (Arizona and Buffalo being the others). They really didn't progress at all under Peters' watch.



I don't put a lot of faith in a coach's success in international tournaments. They're so short and the players have such little pre-tournament time to practice together, that I don't believe a coach can really impact things as much as they can over a long season.

Also, we've seen coaches come through Calgary with Memorial Cups and World Jr Gold medals on their resume who weren't able to get the job done in the NHL.



It seems to me that the selling points for Peters are very similar to what we heard about Gulutzan. Maybe what this team needs is the same message from a different messenger, but I worry it will just be the same #### in a different pile.

[btimbit]

Thanks guys. Nice to read facts and not just "omg gully 2.0"

[Itse]

Originally Posted by getbak

I don't put a lot of faith in a coach's success in international tournaments. They're so short and the players have such little pre-tournament time to practice together, that I don't believe a coach can really impact things as much as they can over a long season.

I think coaching matters quite a bit in a short tournament, but I also think it's so different from league play that being good at one is only partially related to being good at the other. (Some of the skills are obviously the same.)

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

The biggest concern I see is that his teams have finished, respectively, 29th, 28th, 20th, 28th in shooting percentage. For reference the teams in the playoffs this year finished:


Tampa - 1st
Washington - 2nd
Colorado - 3rd
Winnipeg - 4th
Toronto - 5th
Minnesota - 6th
Vegas - 8th
Nashville - 9th
Boston - 10th
Pittsburgh - 11th
Philadelphia - 12th
Anaheim - 13th
L.A. - 14th
New Jersey - 15th
San Jose - 16th
Columbus - 22nd

So is SH% a controllable factor or not? Because New York Islanders and Columbus Blue Jackets were the only outliers to miss/make the playoffs.

Tells me his teams are far too north/south style, top teams now are quick, up the ice and a lot of east/west shots into open nets rather than screens or garbage goals. Even on the PP Gulutzan refused to play a winger on his off side for the one timer whereas every single top PP used this strategy. If indeed Peters is hired (hope not) he better get a PP coach that knows what works. hell, I'll do it for free!

[N-E-B]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

The biggest concern I see is that his teams have finished, respectively, 29th, 28th, 20th, 28th in shooting percentage. For reference the teams in the playoffs this year finished:


Tampa - 1st
Washington - 2nd
Colorado - 3rd
Winnipeg - 4th
Toronto - 5th
Minnesota - 6th
Vegas - 8th
Nashville - 9th
Boston - 10th
Pittsburgh - 11th
Philadelphia - 12th
Anaheim - 13th
L.A. - 14th
New Jersey - 15th
San Jose - 16th
Columbus - 22nd

So is SH% a controllable factor or not? Because New York Islanders and Columbus Blue Jackets were the only outliers to miss/make the playoffs.

To me a low shooting percentage as a team would indicate a lack of skill and I don’t think it has much to do with luck.

Individually I think luck can play a part (ie a high scorer has an off year) but when the total team SH% is low it’s usually because the team doesn’t have enough players that can put the puck in the net.

I think the Flames might have invested too much in defense. That’s an indictment on both the GM and the coaching staff. How many games would you see the Flames try and sit on a one goal lead? It drove me nuts. They never pushed to extend the lead. Once they had it they were content protecting it.

[Aarongavey]

Bill Peters has very similar numbers to what Don Hay had in his first 2 years as NHL HC (without the playoff appearance Don had).

He has virtually the same winning percentage over the past 4 years as Bob Hartley did in his 4 years in Calgary (again without the playoff wins)

He has a worse winning percentage in Carolina than his predecessor Kirk Muller.

But he is the very definition of non-linear progression on rebuilds that some of the sager posters have spoken about on this forum. His team was worse this year than it was the year before or the year before that.

If that pattern (small sample size) holds for a potential stint in Calgary, in a couple years we can talk about how rebuilds are not necessarily linear, there are ups and downs on a rebuild.

Is Peters the right guy for year 7 of the Calgary Flames rebuild? Maybe. Does he get us over the hump and make us a playoff bubble team? Hopefully. I know BT is probably asking himself that last question today, because his job depends on it going forward.