[POLL] Calgary Flames coaching change mega-thread—with poll

[JTech780]

Originally Posted by tkflames

Thank you for adding this. It's a fair point, but I don't think it changes the analysis since it was 10 years ago. If anything it shows growth for Gallant.

But what's to say that Peters can't show the same growth, especially if he moves on from a bottom 3 payroll team and a bottom 5 save percentage team.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

He does have "coach's pet" syndrome like many coaches, though - seems to pick a guy who isn't actually any good, but can do no wrong in the coach's eyes, and give him minutes. Lots of coaches around like that, though - Babcock has that same reputation.

I wish I knew why coaches did this as I find it perplexing. I can only assume like a teacher's pet in that they are first to practice, last to leave, and work their tails off to which the coach wants to use as an example of rewarding hard work. I get that but the issue I have is that hard work isn't good enough when a player simply lacks the talent. That said being a head coach is a lot harder than most of us can comprehend and maybe coaches feel they need a guy like this to show others that if they work harder they will get more ice time and opportunity as it's probably hard to keep players motivated to put in high effort every day over an 82 game season.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

He does have "coach's pet" syndrome like many coaches, though - seems to pick a guy who isn't actually any good, but can do no wrong in the coach's eyes, and give him minutes.

The biggest criticisms I've read of Vigneult in his later Rangers years were:

- overplaying Glass (~10 minutes ATOI)
- overplaying Holden (~20 minutes ATOI)
- overplaying Girardi (~20 minutes ATOI)
- underplaying McIlrath following his decent 2015-16 campaign (34GP)
- clashing with Kevin Hayes
- system relies too much on goaltender to make saves

I mean, the Glass thing is inexcusable on the GMs part. WHy GMs keep this guy on board is fascinating.

The next two seem to be more a function of the Rangers' brutal blue line. Both those guys are Mike Stone caliber guys.

The McIlrath criticism is the interesting one because I saw something there in McIlrath myself when I watched him play. I would still be very interested in what he could do as a #6D as there is a skill level there that #6s don't usually possess. But the ceiling's definitely limited so it's not the biggest loss.

Hayes turned out fine. 49 points last year. 25 goals this year. Probably still underplayed though.

The system thing is intriguing because of how our blue line is very capable and theirs, not so much. Maybe a case of "gulutzan's system might have worked there and AV's system might have worked here"? IDK.

[VladtheImpaler]

Mods, there are basically 3 "GG replacement" threads now - could you please merge to focus discussion? Thank you.

[dammage79]

I'm preparing to Welcome Bill Peters to Calgary as the new Flames coach. I am hoping we will be welcoming Alain Vignault. Or Sutter, or a standard house cat.

[Madman]

Originally Posted by Fischy13

I heard a little more info yesterday. Contemplated saying anything as what I heard was personal. By no means does this mean it's the Flames either. However, Peter's is looking/facilitating a move to Canada. That's all I'll say on that.

I've seen a couple posters question that Peter's is/isn't leaving Carolina. Maybe you haven't seen the other thread? Peter's is negotiating his settlement from his option year. It's a complicated negotiation, hence the extension. This extension has nothing to do with deciding if he will stay with Carolina or not. He's leaving. With 2 Canadian offer in his hand, my source doesn't know where he will go. It's been quite tight lipped.

Sounds Fischy.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Treliving himself said you are what your record says you are at his presser.

AV's record is really good.

Peters' is really bad.

AV = really good.

What paramètres has Treliving set on the constitution of a coach's record? Is it just his performance in the NHL? Minor professional? Juniour? International?

[cross16]

Originally Posted by tkflames

Thank you for adding this. It's a fair point, but I don't think it changes the analysis since it was 10 years ago. If anything it shows growth for Gallant.

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yeah his first stint was not very good at all. That said he learned from it and got better as a coach. Not ever coach can do that as we just experienced.

I agree it shows growth and I think thats important because coaches can grow.

Also agree that not every coach can but many do. I think my over reaching point would be its very difficult to judge what a coach can do using his past performance and just because Gultuzan didn't work, doesn't suggest coaches with similar situations wouldn't work.

Not necessarily for or against Peters, it's just a general thought.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

What paramètres has Treliving set on the constitution of a coach's record? Is it just his performance in the NHL? Minor professional? Juniour? International?

There would be merit to thinking that significant if not the most weight would be given to performance in the most relevant and comparable level.

Of course Treliving is his own man.

[speede5]

I see a few people mentioning Hunter as an assistant. The only good thing about that would be that he is out of Moose Jaw.

This guy had the most talented roster in the dubthos year and was out coached in both rounds of the playoffs. His stubbornness to play one system killed us.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

What paramètres has Treliving set on the constitution of a coach's record? Is it just his performance in the NHL? Minor professional? Juniour? International?

You heard the same presser I did bud.

[OmegaV4]

Anyone think that Crisp would leave his Preds Analyst role and come back?

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by cross16

I agree it shows growth and I think thats important because coaches can grow.

Also agree that not every coach can but many do. I think my over reaching point would be its very difficult to judge what a coach can do using his past performance and just because Gultuzan didn't work, doesn't suggest coaches with similar situations wouldn't work.

Either way, in looking at Peters there is a riskily disproportionate reliance on extrapolation, or even worse, hope.

[dammage79]

According to Wills, the #1 advanced stats team in the league was......
The Carolina Hurricanes. I see where this is going.

Flames were top 4 in advanced stats so the answer must be to hire the coach who is #1!

That above all else scares the bejesus out of me. Not who it is but the reliance on advanced stats to dictate your hire.

Just play the fracking game, don't let math dictate how you play. It doesn't work!

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Locke

8 days? He should have been turfed after the Anaheim debacle last year. You know, that one where he played a goalie that couldnt stop a beach-ball and then instantly pulled him after he let in a goal from behind the red-line.

As opposed to doing his job and just starting his backup because his starter was struggling.




To reiterate, I wanted him fired after the Anaheim debacle.

Blaming Gulutzan for the Anaheim series last year is nonsensical.

That was 100% on Elliot. He was terrible, but Gulutzan had no other decent options as Chad Johnson had been recently injured and when he came back was terrible.

His choices were go with terrible goalie #1 or terrible goalie #2.

Nobody in their right mind would have fired the coach one year after hiring when the team improved as much as it did in the standing, made the playoffs, and only got swept because the goalie was a tire fire.

[Northendzone]

while I believe it is time for Burke to move on, your post amused me because you state it is clear that burke is holding tre back, but then your points note that hopefully BB pushed for those things.

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Hopefully if they are moving on from Burke it's because with a decent sample size of his influence on Treliving's hockey decisions, its become abundantly clear that he's holding Treliving back.

For example:

1. Hopefully he pushed hard for Brouwer signing and Tre was reluctant
2. Hopefully he pushed hard for Bollig trade and Tre was reluctant
3. Hopefully he had a major influence on the 2014 draft, and Tre went with because he was just hired

Etc, etc...


One can hope right?

I don't know what the dynamic between the two is like when hockey decisions are made, and it's probably just wishful thinking.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Blaming Gulutzan for the Anaheim series last year is nonsensical.

That was 100% on Elliot. He was terrible, but Gulutzan had no other decent options as Chad Johnson had been recently injured and when he came back was terrible.

His choices were go with terrible goalie #1 or terrible goalie #2.

Nobody in their right mind would have fired the coach one year after hiring when the team improved as much as it did in the standing, made the playoffs, and only got swept because the goalie was a tire fire.

Could have thrown Gillies into the deep end too. Elliott was shellshocked. Any other goalie would have been a better option.

[The Fonz]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

while I believe it is time for Burke to move on, your post amused me because you state it is clear that burke is holding tre back, but then your points note that hopefully BB pushed for those things.

I think he was saying hopefully BB was holding BT back, as it would be comforting to know that some or most of BT's bad moves have been due to BB's influence.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Could have thrown Gillies into the deep end too. Elliott was shellshocked. Any other goalie would have been a better option.

Most likely would not have made a difference. While I disagreed with the choice, there really were no good options.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

while I believe it is time for Burke to move on, your post amused me because you state it is clear that burke is holding tre back, but then your points note that hopefully BB pushed for those things.

No man, that first sentence also started with the word "hopefully" and it would only be abundantly clear to those involved in hockey ops. I'm not saying it's abundantly clear to me.