Treliving needs to start feeling the heat

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

Because we have to win that trade man!

Or you know it could be the logical conclusion that Granlund was a marginal player on a very bad team.

Canucks will win that trade because the asset we sent to them played in the NHL for a period of time albeit brief vs the asset the Flames received who really only played during a srbage time call up a couple years ago. Whoopi yay Canucks

[jayswin]

I still can't believe the Habs traded Subban for Weber. It's like they took on a star player with a problem, long term contract for a better, younger star player.

[442scotty]

Treliving learned a valuable lesson on building a contender (I'm sure upper management helped push him to speed up things). Never trade away a first round picks , maybe even seconds, when you are early or in the middle of a rebuild. Never sign over the hill or meh UFA's unless it's the LAST piece of the puzzle! Don't make trades unless you are smarter than the person you are trading with (maybe Treliving shouldn't trade for a while ) etc etc

What we, the fans, now have to live with is a middle of the road team, somewhat slower than the rest, marginally talented, boring to watch on most nights and it isn't going to get better for a couple of years in my opinion. Unless a miracle happens.....

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I agree Kanzig was dumb no matter how you look at it as he was a guy they probably could have picked in the 4th or 5th round. Waste of a 3rd round pick essentially. Really though it's not like there was a spot for Gilmour on the big club. At least he's getting an opportunity to play for the Rangers as that wasn't going to happen in Calgary with better players ahead of him on the depth chart.

Though it didn't turn out, you need context when it comes to Kanzig.

Kanzig was atrocious in his first year in the WHL on the Royals. Bona fide enforcer, and not much else. He played bottom pairing minutes and sucked.

In his draft year, he improved and kept moving up, and was routinely on the top pairing playing against the best players IIRC.

The Flames were holding their meetings in Vancouver with their scouting staff and the brass. They hopped the ferry and took in some Royals games - Button wanted to see what everyone else thought of Kanzig. Everyone apparently really liked him - they liked his size (of course), but also his defensive awareness, his leadership, his maturity (they spoke to people around the organization) and everything came back super positive.

Kanzig just didn't take that step, for whatever reason, after a MASSIVE increase in his development. He was an amazingly committed player as well (and his physique showed it). I think it was a fine gamble... if he did take a couple of steps, who knows how important he would have been to the Flames. It is just for whatever reason, he didn't progress (much), but at the time - and with context - I don't think it was a bad gamble.

Also, judging by Button's take on things and how the Flames seem to operate, they keep their eyes open for other teams' scouts and try to figure out who they are watching and how much they like him, and try and guess what rounds that teams take players in. They guessed right on Gaudreau, missed out on Kucherov, got it right with Jankowski, etc. Kanzig might not have been available later in the draft, though in hindsight that would have been a positive.

[Travis Munroe]

I know it isn't the common thought on this board but I still have little issues with trading the picks for Hamonic. I truly believe he had one of his worst years last year and this time next year, while fighting it out in the playoffs, we will look back at who the flames would have drafted 12th overall* and how likely it is that person is not nearly the impact player that Hamonic is. We saw Hamonic play pissed off near the end of the year before his injury and I think that is the Hamonic that shows up in the playoffs.

Even more so to Trelivings argument is the fact we should have never been looking at a lottery pick and the player they would have got may never turn out to be more than a third line player.

I am sure there are those hoping the isles win the lottery with our pick to point more fingers at Tre but pretend you are in the boardroom before making that trade. You run the numbers and are convinced you are a playoff team...the trade makes perfect sense. Even if you aren't a playoff team but just on the outside, the odds of moving up in the lottery are so low that it still makes sense to bring in Hamonic. As it turns out, all of the worst case scenarios are playing out but it is way to early to tell who won or lost that trade. Let's see who the Isles get and what they become.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by 442scotty

Treliving learned a valuable lesson on building a contender (I'm sure upper management helped push him to speed up things). Never trade away a first round picks , maybe even seconds, when you are early or in the middle of a rebuild. Never sign over the hill or meh UFA's unless it's the LAST piece of the puzzle! Don't make trades unless you are smarter than the person you are trading with (maybe Treliving shouldn't trade for a while ) etc etc

What we, the fans, now have to live with is a middle of the road team, somewhat slower than the rest, marginally talented, boring to watch on most nights and it isn't going to get better for a couple of years in my opinion. Unless a miracle happens.....

I don't think that is accurate. Tre said he still thinks the Hamonic trade was a good one (can't remember where, I think it was the end of season interview). I tend to agree, Hamonic is a good Dman on a good contract... in any case it is certainly debatable. And to that end, he didn't trade a 1st early or in the middle of a rebuild. The rebuild is done... 'don't make trades unless you are smarter than the person you are trading with'... that might be a joke but, basically the same as saying only make good trades, which isn't worth saying.

Edit: Except trading a 1st for Hamilton... but I don't think many people would argue against that trade.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Though it didn't turn out, you need context when it comes to Kanzig.

Kanzig was atrocious in his first year in the WHL on the Royals. Bona fide enforcer, and not much else. He played bottom pairing minutes and sucked.

In his draft year, he improved and kept moving up, and was routinely on the top pairing playing against the best players IIRC.

The Flames were holding their meetings in Vancouver with their scouting staff and the brass. They hopped the ferry and took in some Royals games - Button wanted to see what everyone else thought of Kanzig. Everyone apparently really liked him - they liked his size (of course), but also his defensive awareness, his leadership, his maturity (they spoke to people around the organization) and everything came back super positive.

Kanzig just didn't take that step, for whatever reason, after a MASSIVE increase in his development. He was an amazingly committed player as well (and his physique showed it). I think it was a fine gamble... if he did take a couple of steps, who knows how important he would have been to the Flames. It is just for whatever reason, he didn't progress (much), but at the time - and with context - I don't think it was a bad gamble.

Also, judging by Button's take on things and how the Flames seem to operate, they keep their eyes open for other teams' scouts and try to figure out who they are watching and how much they like him, and try and guess what rounds that teams take players in. They guessed right on Gaudreau, missed out on Kucherov, got it right with Jankowski, etc. Kanzig might not have been available later in the draft, though in hindsight that would have been a positive.

Yeah that's fine and all but Central scouting had him ranked as the 112 North American skater and the Flames picked him 67th overall. It's one thing to like a prospect but part of being a good drafting team is to value your picks and not reach on low ranked prospects. There's no reason they couldn't have used the 3rd round pick on another player and picked Kanzig in the 4th or 5th round. If the Flames actually had a 3rd round grade on Kanzig then to me that's an indictment on their scouting and evaluation.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Realtor 1

I know it isn't the common thought on this board but I still have little issues with trading the picks for Hamonic. I truly believe he had one of his worst years last year and this time next year, while fighting it out in the playoffs, we will look back at who the flames would have drafted 12th overall* and how likely it is that person is not nearly the impact player that Hamonic is. We saw Hamonic play pissed off near the end of the year before his injury and I think that is the Hamonic that shows up in the playoffs.

Even more so to Trelivings argument is the fact we should have never been looking at a lottery pick and the player they would have got may never turn out to be more than a third line player.

I am sure there are those hoping the isles win the lottery with our pick to point more fingers at Tre but pretend you are in the boardroom before making that trade. You run the numbers and are convinced you are a playoff team...the trade makes perfect sense. Even if you aren't a playoff team but just on the outside, the odds of moving up in the lottery are so low that it still makes sense to bring in Hamonic. As it turns out, all of the worst case scenarios are playing out but it is way to early to tell who won or lost that trade. Let's see who the Isles get and what they become.

I'm still good with the trade. People act like Treliving just up and offered an unprotected pick. I think it went down something like: "Edmonton really wants him, they will give us their first, etc. but they want it protected". Treliving (a) wants Hamonic; (b) thinks a first is reasonable for a top 4 guy and a really good defender (which the team doesn't have outside of Gio); (c) doesn't want Edmonton to get him; and (d) correctly thinks its a really long shot that a Calgary pick would even up as a top 3. So he marginally betters Edmonton's offer by going unprotected.

In hindsight, I still think you can't get a player as good as Hamonic out of the current draft spot. I thought he was one of the top players on the team from December onward.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yeah that's fine and all but Central scouting had him ranked as the 112 North American skater and the Flames picked him 67th overall. It's one thing to like a prospect but part of being a good drafting team is to value your picks and not reach on low ranked prospects. There's no reason they couldn't have used the 3rd round pick on another player and picked Kanzig in the 4th or 5th round. If the Flames actually had a 3rd round grade on Kanzig then to me that's an indictment on their scouting and evaluation.

I can cite a whole lot of picks that central scouting had too low - Kucherov, Gaudreau, to begin with. There's really not much space between a third and fifth rounder as far as NHL likelihood if you look at the stats.

[Roof-Daddy]

Even after drafting Kanzig in the 3rd round, there was no reason to sign him so quickly like they did.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Even after drafting Kanzig in the 3rd round, there was no reason to sign him so quickly like they did.

But have they ever been at contract limit since then? If not, who cares?

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

But have they ever been at contract limit since then? If not, who cares?

I don't know if they have or not for sure, but it's not just that, it shows terrible judgement on the part of the Flames FO.

You don't sign 3rd rounders like that so quickly when you have two years to make a decision.

He ended up playing two more full years of junior (including over age) and has since played the bulk of his time in the ECHL. Yet here is a guy our front office deemed worthy of an ELC a mere 6 months after drafting him.

Maybe you don't care if they have that terrible of judgement, but I do. I want to see this team succeed at something someday.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I don't know if they have or not for sure, but it's not just that, it shows terrible judgement on the part of the Flames FO.

You don't sign 3rd rounders like that so quickly when you have two years to make a decision.

He ended playing two more full years of junior (including over age) and has since played the bulk of his time in the ECHL. Yet here is a guy our front office deemed worthy of an ELC a mere 6 months after drafting him.

Maybe you don't care if they have that terrible of judgement, but I do. I want to see this team succeed at something someday.

If they have plenty of space available and choose to accelerate an ELC (perhaps to get him at league minimum standard contract status sooner) nah, I don't care. One thing Treliving is stellar at is contracts.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I don't know if they have or not for sure, but it's not just that, it shows terrible judgement on the part of the Flames FO.

You don't sign 3rd rounders like that so quickly when you have two years to make a decision.

He ended up playing two more full years of junior (including over age) and has since played the bulk of his time in the ECHL. Yet here is a guy our front office deemed worthy of an ELC a mere 6 months after drafting him.

Maybe you don't care if they have that terrible of judgement, but I do. I want to see this team succeed at something someday.

There could be a ton of factors into that contract and its timing. None of which we are privy to, so calling it "terrible judgment" is meaningless.

[Roof-Daddy]

I don't know what factors could possibly lead to the signing of a 3rd round pick 6 months after drafting him (when you have 2 years to decide) only to have him end up as a full time ECHLer.

Looks more like terrible judgement to me than some sort of phantom factors that there is apparently a "ton" of.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I don't know what factors could possibly lead to the signing of a 3rd round pick 6 months after drafting him (when you have 2 years to decide) only to have him end up as a full time ECHLer.

Looks more like terrible judgement to me than some sort of phantom factors that there is apparently a "ton" of.

Not apparently, but there might be other factors. "Ton" was just an exaggeration.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by the2bears

Not apparently, but there might be other factors. "Ton" was just an exaggeration.

Hey look, I'm sure there are other factors that could go into it, and I hope you're right and I'm wrong. If you are the outlook for this team is a lot better than if I'm right and it was terrible judgement. Also, if it was terrible judgement hopefully they learned from it and stop making stupid decisions like that one.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by 442scotty

Treliving learned a valuable lesson on building a contender (I'm sure upper management helped push him to speed up things). Never trade away a first round picks , maybe even seconds, when you are early or in the middle of a rebuild. Never sign over the hill or meh UFA's unless it's the LAST piece of the puzzle! Don't make trades unless you are smarter than the person you are trading with (maybe Treliving shouldn't trade for a while ) etc etc

What we, the fans, now have to live with is a middle of the road team, somewhat slower than the rest, marginally talented, boring to watch on most nights and it isn't going to get better for a couple of years in my opinion. Unless a miracle happens.....

I agree with everything you have said. However, the question that comes out of your post for me is "If BT is the one who got us into this spot, should he be one to get us out?"

[Classic_Sniper]

The spotlight is now all on Tre. He’s got 1 bullet left in the chamber and he has to make right hire or it’s his head that’s on the chopping block next. I’m not a fan of his player evaluation and if this aspect doesn’t specifically improve this summer, the writing will be on the wall for me. If he falls in love and acquires another Curtis Lazar or Troy Brouwer, he should be gone.

[Classic_Sniper]

Duplicate