Sam Bennett Value: Have the Flames held on TOO long? OR is he awesome?

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by ---Hatrick---

Monahan (while injured), Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Ferland all had career years. Hamilton was the leader amongst D men in goals scored. Yes, some players underachieved, but several had great years. Im not advocating keeping GG, just pointing that out

Monahan and Gaudreau - top line, playing together, and entering their prime. Expected to improve.
Tkachuk is a special player. Career year? Second year, expected to improve.

Ferland having a career year is like Bernie having a great weekend in Weekend at Bernie’s.

Hamilton tied for the league D in goals. Hedman had the same amount of goals but 46 assists. More assists than Hamilton had points. Dougie was 39th in the league in assists by D. There were 8 D that had 60 plus points. Torey Krug also had more assists than Hamilton had points. Dougie had a good but not great year offensively and was hit and miss defensively.

So there were a couple of acceptable results by Flames, but really trying to talk them up in light of the overall body of work is akin to polishing a turd.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Several players underachieved on his watch. Individually and collectively. System is bad, team is awful, assets are devalued. Damn right I disagree with you, blame the coach, and unapologetically.

Come on man.

If GG is to take blame for other individuals failures, he deserves credit for their success as well. As pointed out, Gaudreu, monahan, Ferland, smith, tkachuck all had commendable seasons, career bests for some. The three M line was one of the best in the league last year and the Dougie Gio pairing has been nothing short of great to elite. Ignoring such things defeats your position. It's obstinate.

But while you're at it, why not blame GG for Brian Elliot's face plant in the playoffs last year...... I think I'll blame him for the snow today.

[kevman]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

Most players that age are still in the minors, which is where he should have been until now.

This.

Go back to the draft thread, lots of optimism with this pick as long as he was developed properly. Unfortunately for Bennettm, the Flames Oilers'd him. I think Bennett needed AHL seasoning but there was too much excitement around him at the time. His 4 goal game, etc. didn't help this. Then, by the time it was apparent he needed to be sent down, it was too late and there was no way he'd go through waivers.

I think he's far too young to write of completely. However, I don't know how to get him to the next level playing 3rd line minutes with scraps in the NHL.

[yourbestfriend]

Originally Posted by kevman

This.

Go back to the draft thread, lots of optimism with this pick as long as he was developed properly. Unfortunately for Bennettm, the Flames Oilers'd him. I think Bennett needed AHL seasoning but there was too much excitement around him at the time. His 4 goal game, etc. didn't help this. Then, by the time it was apparent he needed to be sent down, it was too late and there was no way he'd go through waivers.

I think he's far too young to write of completely. However, I don't know how to get him to the next level playing 3rd line minutes with scraps in the NHL.

Looking back we can say that we rushed him, but throughout the process, he didn't give the team a reason to be send down.
Right after he was drafted, he looked great in training camp and would have made the team. Upon returning from surgery he proceeded to put up 2ppg and a 1gpg in the OHL. Followed by a great performance in the 2015 playoffs where he was at times the best player on the ice.
Following year he put up a very respectable 18/18 rookie season playing wing with Backlund/Frolik which we all thought was be a great developmental role for him - by sheltering him with two great 2way forwards he could learn to play defense at the NHL level.
Next year the goal was for him to take the next step at C with our new truculent RW RS consistent 20/20 UFA riding shotgun. And in all fairness, Bennett and Brouwer looked great in training camp together that year. His woes were largely attributed to a sophomore slump and the need to get stronger.
At the beginning of this year, following a sophomore slump and a full summer of training and getting bigger/faster as well as a bridge extension, expectations were sky high from everyone. I remember Tre saying that he believes this was the year Bennett would truly break out. For whatever reason it didn't materialize.

The best time to send him down would have been last year. I remember there was a lot of discussions about sending him down vs. keeping him up and having him figure it out up here. Hindsight is 20/20 but hey what can you do? I think this might be some of the reason why we are over marinating a few of our other prospects.

[---Hatrick---]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Monahan and Gaudreau - top line, playing together, and entering their prime. Expected to improve.
Tkachuk is a special player. Career year? Second year, expected to improve.

Ferland having a career year is like Bernie having a great weekend in Weekend at Bernie’s.

Hamilton tied for the league D in goals. Hedman had the same amount of goals but 46 assists. More assists than Hamilton had points. Dougie was 39th in the league in assists by D. There were 8 D that had 60 plus points. Torey Krug also had more assists than Hamilton had points. Dougie had a good but not great year offensively and was hit and miss defensively.

So there were a couple of acceptable results by Flames, but really trying to talk them up in light of the overall body of work is akin to polishing a turd.

Not trying to talk anyone up at all. The season was a failure however stating that several players underachieved this season is unfair to say when you don't mention that several players had a lot of success as well.
Hamilton didn't put up as many points but he showed that he can be a very good option as a weapon on the PP that can pot a lot of goals. I'd say he had a successful season even if he didn't have a career year points wise.

Also keep in mind that, yes, it was only Tkachuk's second season, but he topped his point total from last year while his linematess point production was reduced. He easily could have had less points this season and we would't have changed our opinions about him

[Jeff Lebowski]

I was discussing with my brother a theory I had with Bennett. To me, I find his lack of production may be attributable to the intensity with which he plays. That intensity is obviously a key part to his game as it fuels his doggedness on pucks, the heaviness in his game. It's like any role player - they play super hard and everything is max effort.

But sometimes, especially in offensive situations, you need to relax a bit. Take something off the shot to place it better - if you're shooting as hard as you can you might miss the net entirely or hit the goalie right in the crest. Maybe he needs to throttle down a little more so he can find soft spots in the coverage.

I realize you don't want him changing drastically because it might make him a completely ineffective player but I think this is one of those lessons young guys need to learn to become consistent.

I remember reading a quote from Jarome talking about needing to relax when he was in a slump and that it may sound counterintuitive. He wanted to hammer every shot and do everything harder - work harder - when things weren't going your way but Iggy found that he actually needed to relax more, allow him to see the net when he was shooting and place it there. Kind of like a golf swing where you hear people say to ease the grip more and release the tension.

I also think Bennett needs to use a shorter stick. I think he would benefit from being able to stick handle quicker and it would help him get his shot of quicker - may be silly but I notice he sometimes has trouble when he's 1 on 1 and he wants to fire the puck through a defender that he can't release the puck.

In summary if he can calm himself and relax when he has offensive opportunities but maintain that hardness and intensity in the other areas it could really help him be that offensive force he believes he can be.

[EldrickOnIce]

Wanted a first line center, got a 3rd line winger.
Really isn't much more to say - he's played 250 NHL games.

To expect some transformation, at this point, isn't even wishful thinking - it's a silly little dream.
In my opinion

[madmike]

Everyone talked about how great the 2014 draft was - at least in the 1st round, but when you look at it overall it was a pretty lousy draft. Pastrnak was a nice find obviously. Ehlers has been great, then you’ve got Nylander and Draisaitl, but a lot of that first round looks really ugly now. Even Ekblad has been a bit of a disappointment.

I agree Bennett is what he is at this point. He might get a bit better but he’s never going to be the star we were all hoping for.

PS. On the bright side at least the Flames didn’t pick Dal Colle.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

Wanted a first line center, got a 3rd line winger.
Really isn't much more to say - he's played 250 NHL games.

To expect some transformation, at this point, isn't even wishful thinking - it's a silly little dream.
In my opinion

I'm not there yet.

I've taken the top line upside off the mantle, I've elevated the downside from the bust that every player faces to third line guy with decent numbers.

But I haven't tossed the towel on the 20 goal 50 point player, think that could still emerge.

Why?

1. He has all the tools. He's quick, he has decent size, and he has a great shot.
2. The kid has so much jam.
3. Not many players that fail to live up to their billing have splashes of everything coming together, but we've seen that in the 4 goal game, and two playoff appearances.
4. Mental side of the game is killing him, which is both good and bad. Bad in that he may never sort that out, but good if maturity and experience allow him to settle in and become a more consistent player.

Dobber on Bennett ...

Bennett led the Flames in expected goals per 60 minutes. His mark of 0.92 was also top-25 league-wide among forwards with at least 500 minutes played. His problem was his shooting percentage, managing just over 7 percent at five-on-five after being close to 10 percent over his first two seasons.

Here’s the interesting thing: he barely shot while on the ice on the power play. Among the league’s 214 forwards with at least 100 minutes of power play time, he was 209th in individual shot attempts per 60 minutes. The only players who shot less often were Nick Foligno, David Desharnais, Travis Zajac, and Zack Smith. Not only did Bennett underperform his expected goals at five-on-five by a pretty significant margin, but there was no chance he’d make up the difference on the power play shooting as little as he did.

The 2018-19 campaign will be his fourth, and you know we love our fourth-year breakouts here. He’ll have a hard time being consistently productive in leagues that don’t count hits as he’ll likely be third line/second power-play unit, but don’t sleep on him in deeper leagues. A jump in shot rates on the PP could help get him close to 20 goals and 40 points.

[jlh2640]

He is borderline bust, but I still wouldnt be selling him off like the Oilers would. He has value, we just need to lower expectations of his ceiling.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

Wanted a first line center, got a 3rd line winger.
Really isn't much more to say - he's played 250 NHL games.

To expect some transformation, at this point, isn't even wishful thinking - it's a silly little dream.
In my opinion

This view baffles me, regarding a 21 year old. Bennett has all kinds of tools (outlined nicely by Bingo). All he needs is for the game to slow down for him. And that can happen for a player at any time.

Yes, it might never happen. But to simply dismiss the possibility, I don't get.

[GoJetsGo]

It's a silly dream to think at 21 year old might dramatically improve?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

This view baffles me, regarding a 21 year old. Bennett has all kinds of tools (outlined nicely by Bingo). All he needs is for the game to slow down for him. And that can happen for a player at any time.

Yes, it might never happen. But to simply dismiss the possibility, I don't get.

Yeah, when I watch Bennett I see a really good player who is still (frustratingly) struggling to find his game at the NHL level. I think that he might be the best puck-carrier and distributor of the forward group on the team outside of Gaudreau, but he so often makes baffling decisions when he has the puck that prevent him from capitalizing on this skill-set.

I sure hope he puts it all together soon.

[yourbestfriend]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

This view baffles me, regarding a 21 year old. Bennett has all kinds of tools (outlined nicely by Bingo). All he needs is for the game to slow down for him. And that can happen for a player at any time.

Yes, it might never happen. But to simply dismiss the possibility, I don't get.

Lets be objective about this and take the homer glasses off for a second.

Yakupov through 3 seasons had 88pts in 192games or 0.46pgp.
4 seasons in he was at 111pts in 252games or 0.44pgp.

Bennett through 3 seasons has 88pts in 240games or 0.37pgp.

I'm not an Oiler's apologist by any means, but why was the whole board declaring Yak a bust well before 252games, and yet we still keep giving Bennett a pass or make up excuses for him? I'm all for giving guys a chance, but it's stupid to have double standards just because Bennett is a Flame.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by yourbestfriend

Lets be objective about this and take the homer glasses off for a second.

Yakupov through 3 seasons had 88pts in 192games or 0.46pgp.
4 seasons in he was at 111pts in 252games or 0.44pgp.

Bennett through 3 seasons has 88pts in 240games or 0.37pgp.

I'm not an Oiler's apologist by any means, but why was the whole board declaring Yak a bust well before 252games, and yet we still keep giving Bennett a pass or make up excuses for him? I'm all for giving guys a chance, but it's stupid to have double standards just because Bennett is a Flame.

Nothing says 'solid argument' liking pulling out the homer glasses card.

Yakupov showed a few things from day one:

1) very low hockey IQ. I know people say that about Bennett now, but he was considered to have elite hockey IQ when drafted. He hasn't figured it out at the NHL level yet, but there is more reason for hope than there was with Yakupov

2) Yakupov showed from day 1 that he wasn't keen on being coached - he wanted to do his thing, his way. Bennett is the opposite. He wants nothing more than to please the coach, and frankly, I think that is getting in his way right now. Once a coach can find a spot in the roster, and a role, that Bennett can settle into, I think we'll see the game slow down for him.

3) Yakupov was playing for the worst organization in the long and storied history of hockey. I, for one, still thought Yakupov was worth a reclamation project if he could get the stink washed off him. But alas, he could not.

4) Bennett has shown - in 2 different playoff seasons - that he can be a very useful forward in the playoffs. He was arguably the Flames 3rd or 4th best forward in both their playoff stints. Needless to say, there is no such comparison for Yakupov.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

1) very low hockey IQ. I know people say that about Bennett now, but he was considered to have elite hockey IQ when drafted. He hasn't figured it out at the NHL level yet, but there is more reason for hope than there was with Yakupov

I don't know about Bennett's hockey IQ prior to the NHL. I found it to be a little dubious after seeing him play for the Flames for a couple years, so I went back and watched a bunch of video from junior.

I'm no expert but it really seems his high hockey IQ was actually just him being way stronger and faster than most players around him and then making dipsy doodle moves because of this.

[blankall]

Bennett was ranked #1 in the draft by some. He slid to #4, because he was physically underdeveloped and it would take time to develop him into his potential.

Jumping to the conclusion that he's not capable of progressing to anything beyond a 3rd liner at 21 is absurd.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by jayswin

I don't know about Bennett's hockey IQ prior to the NHL. I found it to be a little dubious after seeing him play for the Flames for a couple years, so I went back and watched a bunch of video from junior.

I'm no expert but it really seems his high hockey IQ was actually just him being way stronger and faster than most players around him and then making dipsy doodle moves because of this.

Stronger? As a 17 year old? I think this is an issue we should defer to the scouts on.

[Willi Plett]

Every time I look at the Bennett debate I think of Galchenyuk in Montreal - now 24.

For 3 years they said they didn’t know where he fit. Is he a winger or center? Is he going to be a top six or a fourth liner? He’s a bust. Progression, regression... Maybe trade him.

Fast forward to this year... now Montreal doesn’t really want to trade him.

Who thought Ferland would be playing top line minutes on his off wing and put up almost 20 goals 5 years ago? 5 years ago he put up 15 points in Adirondack...

What was Bennett’s downside when drafted? Size and physical maturity. From 21-25 my shoulder width increased 6 inches. Missed a full season basically with shoulder injury and surgery.

The real problem with Sam Bennett? Probably our own depth. If this was his first season up from the AHL maybe we’d all be salivating wondering what he’d be like next year. The real problem, our expectations that as such a high pick he’d already be making a difference and not admitting that despite a high ranking and pick it might take more time.

Would I trade him? Sure but the GM on the other end of the phone would be paying for his belief that he’s going to get a lot better and be a key asset over the next couple of seasons. Or it would be because I new something that others outside my organization didn’t - something to the effect of his attitude having soured and become incorrectable (I don’t just example).

The problem is really that the Flames always want to hurry to mediocrity and being on the playoff bubble instead of drafting and drafting and drafting and developing and developing and developing. Did anyone look at the Stockton lineup last night? Depth? What depth? What if our youngest Flame players were all still there instead of golfing because we took longer to build up a bigger more solid pool of upcoming players?

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

It's a silly dream to think at 21 year old might dramatically improve?

Will be happy to be wrong.

If one made a list of players who dramatically improved after playing 250 NHL games, who would be on it?
Van Riemsdyk is one, others?