Treliving needs to start feeling the heat

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Monahan For Mayor

Why wouldn't Granlund have a spot at centre, he is better then Stajan.

I’ll go the opposite than Badgers and say he wasn’t when we traded him, and even last year you could make a debate. This year? Sure, maybe, but do you hold on to Granlund for an extra season and a half as a 7th/AHL guy just to see? Would he be happy with that?

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Well Byron lost his spot to Brandon Bollig, that was the guy BT really wanted to hang on to.

But BT does have a problem with Feaster guys (Byron, Baertschi, Granlund), his guys usually get buried in the minors (Bollig), bought out (Raymond) or given enough time to eventually show their value (Brouwer).

The extra forward was always going to switch between Bollig and whoever cleared between Byron and Raymond. If Byron had beaten out Raymond clearly, he wouldn’t have been waved along with him.

I don’t think BT has a problem with Feaster guys, I just think Feaster guys were notorious for being long-plays, or guys who just didn’t have a fit. It’s worked out for some, but not others.

I think it’s just hard in today’s NHL to have patience on everyone. Sometimes you have to cut bait. Would we be better with Granlund, Byron, and Baertschi? Maybe, but Vancouver is in a completely different phase. Colborne was better here than in Colorado, things just play differently in different situations.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I like Treliving and feel he shouldn't be lambasted here - at least not yet. He has made some good trades, some poor trades, some good signings, some poor ones, etc.

Overall, I think his biggest mistake was hiring Gulutzan. I hope that he remedies this first. I generally find that the biggest mistakes a GM can make are one of three things:

1) Sell too soon on young skilled players - they can make a GM look incompetent quickly (i.e. Look at Forsberg - after the trade people thought it was a poor trade right away, but after Forsberg's rookie season, they though McPhee was a complete buffoon - looks like he isn't such an idiot after all). Byron was the only player I have felt that Treliving has thrown away (and it was a big mistake at the time, regardless of how people like to rationalize it - I called him the Flames best depth player with his versatility and ability to play on any line and in any position, and still help the team). I will be floored if Treliving trades Bennett or Brodie for peanuts. I don't think he would do this.

2) Giving high dollar/high term contracts to players - this can really bite some in the ass. This is one area where I at least feel 100% confident that Treliving hasn't screwed up AT ALL. Calgary is extremely well positioned in terms of cap space and future obligations, while having a core that is actually on the cheap.

3) Hiring the wrong coach. This kills a GM quickly. I said it when he fired Hartley - the clock starts ticking now. I really do believe a GM - unless he has won the cup or has had a lot of success in the playoffs - can survive 2-3 coaching hires, and that's it. As soon as he fired Hartley, who wasn't 'his guy', it started for him. I believe hiring Gulutzan was a mistake in hindsight (obviously). Hopefully his next coaching hire isn't a mistake. Darryl Sutter was a pretty good GM in Calgary who couldn't hire the right coach. He last 3 coaches, with the last coach being the 'most wrong'. It precipitated him doing a mid-season irrational trade in the hopes of bringing better balance to the club, and it was the impetus for his dismissal and for people losing complete trust in his abilities. So many 'in Sutter we trust' signs, all gone overnight.

Has Treliving made mistakes? Yes he has. He has made a bunch of UFA signings that didn't just pan out, but they were over-priced and carried too much term. However, none of them really matter much. It hasn't 'hurt' the Flames at all, so that is a win so far in my books. He has traded players for lesser pieces (I still think the Granlund for Shinkaruk deal was a poor one, as I never thought much of Shinkaruk).

He has traded away not one, but two first round picks. For all the grief that Sutter took for trading away picks, the Flames have only one single season under his tenure where they didn't have a first round selection. That is a bit of an eyebrow-raiser here, but it isn't like they were getting UFAs or old players (Hamilton and Hamonic were both worth the acquisition cost IMO).

It is good that the Flames are close to the salary cap (but have breathing room) as Treliving has not been strong at signing UFAs, so I don't worry about that. I worry that Treliving might look to sign Peters out of Carolina as I feel he may be just another Gulutzan with a bit more bite. I would have been fine with Peters had the Flames been transitioning from Hartley and looking for 'fresh blood' so to speak, but I do think it is time this organization looks at hiring an established coach with a proven trace record of turning around a team.

If Treliving hires the wrong coach again, it may propel the Flames into that downward spiral and quickly accelerate the stopwatch on Treliving's time with the Flames, and having him try and make a bunch of in-season trades trying to balance this team out. Treliving has shown a lot of restraint in every season so far (thankfully, kind of) with not making big trades in-season. However, I also don't think he has really felt that ticking clock yet and the pressure that comes with it. It was rather easy to stay pat under Hartley - a guy he didn't coach - and not make a move to acquire a solid goaltender mid-season to try and salvage the year. Heck, the Flames should have been a rebuilding club anyway.

We will see what happens. I think if he doesn't let Gulutzan go, that stopwatch moves a lot quicker... Hire a new coach, that stopwatch slows down some after Treliving 'made a big move' an the allowance a new coach gives a team in 'learning the system' and the growing pains it sometimes gives. However, it is never fully stopped until the Flames make it far in the playoffs, and it is NEVER reset unless the Flames win the cup.

This off-season (whenever it starts for the Flames) is going to be really interesting. I don't think there is anything wrong with taking your time to fire Gully if that is the decision that he has arrived on, and just wants to give more time and have a thorough discussion with everyone involved in the organization - you might as well be sure about it. However, he better be started on whatever he has to analyze about the available coaches and who could possibly make a good fit.

[PugnaciousIntern]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I like Treliving and feel he shouldn't be lambasted here - at least not yet. He has made some good trades, some poor trades, some good signings, some poor ones, etc.

Overall, I think his biggest mistake was hiring Gulutzan. I hope that he remedies this first. I generally find that the biggest mistakes a GM can make are one of three things:

1) Sell too soon on young skilled players - they can make a GM look incompetent quickly (i.e. Look at Forsberg - after the trade people thought it was a poor trade right away, but after Forsberg's rookie season, they though McPhee was a complete buffoon - looks like he isn't such an idiot after all). Byron was the only player I have felt that Treliving has thrown away (and it was a big mistake at the time, regardless of how people like to rationalize it - I called him the Flames best depth player with his versatility and ability to play on any line and in any position, and still help the team). I will be floored if Treliving trades Bennett or Brodie for peanuts. I don't think he would do this.

2) Giving high dollar/high term contracts to players - this can really bite some in the ass. This is one area where I at least feel 100% confident that Treliving hasn't screwed up AT ALL. Calgary is extremely well positioned in terms of cap space and future obligations, while having a core that is actually on the cheap.

3) Hiring the wrong coach. This kills a GM quickly. I said it when he fired Hartley - the clock starts ticking now. I really do believe a GM - unless he has won the cup or has had a lot of success in the playoffs - can survive 2-3 coaching hires, and that's it. As soon as he fired Hartley, who wasn't 'his guy', it started for him. I believe hiring Gulutzan was a mistake in hindsight (obviously). Hopefully his next coaching hire isn't a mistake. Darryl Sutter was a pretty good GM in Calgary who couldn't hire the right coach. He last 3 coaches, with the last coach being the 'most wrong'. It precipitated him doing a mid-season irrational trade in the hopes of bringing better balance to the club, and it was the impetus for his dismissal and for people losing complete trust in his abilities. So many 'in Sutter we trust' signs, all gone overnight.

Has Treliving made mistakes? Yes he has. He has made a bunch of UFA signings that didn't just pan out, but they were over-priced and carried too much term. However, none of them really matter much. It hasn't 'hurt' the Flames at all, so that is a win so far in my books. He has traded players for lesser pieces (I still think the Granlund for Shinkaruk deal was a poor one, as I never thought much of Shinkaruk).

He has traded away not one, but two first round picks. For all the grief that Sutter took for trading away picks, the Flames have only one single season under his tenure where they didn't have a first round selection. That is a bit of an eyebrow-raiser here, but it isn't like they were getting UFAs or old players (Hamilton and Hamonic were both worth the acquisition cost IMO).

It is good that the Flames are close to the salary cap (but have breathing room) as Treliving has not been strong at signing UFAs, so I don't worry about that. I worry that Treliving might look to sign Peters out of Carolina as I feel he may be just another Gulutzan with a bit more bite. I would have been fine with Peters had the Flames been transitioning from Hartley and looking for 'fresh blood' so to speak, but I do think it is time this organization looks at hiring an established coach with a proven trace record of turning around a team.

If Treliving hires the wrong coach again, it may propel the Flames into that downward spiral and quickly accelerate the stopwatch on Treliving's time with the Flames, and having him try and make a bunch of in-season trades trying to balance this team out. Treliving has shown a lot of restraint in every season so far (thankfully, kind of) with not making big trades in-season. However, I also don't think he has really felt that ticking clock yet and the pressure that comes with it. It was rather easy to stay pat under Hartley - a guy he didn't coach - and not make a move to acquire a solid goaltender mid-season to try and salvage the year. Heck, the Flames should have been a rebuilding club anyway.

We will see what happens. I think if he doesn't let Gulutzan go, that stopwatch moves a lot quicker... Hire a new coach, that stopwatch slows down some after Treliving 'made a big move' an the allowance a new coach gives a team in 'learning the system' and the growing pains it sometimes gives. However, it is never fully stopped until the Flames make it far in the playoffs, and it is NEVER reset unless the Flames win the cup.

This off-season (whenever it starts for the Flames) is going to be really interesting. I don't think there is anything wrong with taking your time to fire Gully if that is the decision that he has arrived on, and just wants to give more time and have a thorough discussion with everyone involved in the organization - you might as well be sure about it. However, he better be started on whatever he has to analyze about the available coaches and who could possibly make a good fit.

All interesting points. I haven't been thinking of it much from BT's perspective ...he can fire the coach, but if he does, and the next one doesn't pan out, his own job is on the line too.

On a side note, boy does it suck to coach a Canadian NHL team.

[Vedder]

Originally Posted by edslunch

Maybe, but in his time here Granlund was a better replacement than most of the current bottom six

He never played enough games to prove that. He’s one dimensional, not a great skater, and will likely be out of the NHL within the next couple years given his curren production. If we are bemoaning his loss as a reason the Flames missed the playoffs this year we are missing the mark by a mile.

[TOfan]

The Granlund debate reminds me of when the Flames traded Dustin Boyd. Some were convinced the Flames had traded away a perennial 20 goal scorer.

[Vinny01]

Will Granlund be in the league next year?

[DeluxeMoustache]

There are some bottom 6 guys that make a diffrerence by doing certain things well and there are some that are kind of ok at things but are ultimately quite replaceable.

Byron would be an example of the first, as he brought speed, tenacity, contributed on the PK, etc.
Granlund was the latter.

That trade was exchanging assets with limited ceiling and has pretty much no bearing on where the Flames are now

[Roof-Daddy]

Lose Byron on waivers.
Trade a 2nd for Lazar.

If Treliving phoned Bergevin and offered Lazar for Byron, do you think Bergevin says yes?

Not a chance.

These are the things that irk the #### out of me the more I think about them, especially when it's the crappy bottom six forward group that sunk this team as much as anything.

[Roof-Daddy]

Or this one.

In 2013 the Flames front office drafts Keegan Kanzig 67th overall and John Gilmour 198th overall.

After 6 months "they" decide that Kanzing needs to be inked to an ELC. 6 months? WTF? They have 2 years to evaluate this guy before a decision needs to be made.

Fast forward a couple years later, and "they" decide Gilmour isn't worth and ELC and cut him loose. The Rangers however offer the kid an ELC and he goes on to have 1.5 solid years in the AHL and then plays 28 games in the NHL. I don't know if he's going to be a full time NHLer or not, but in the mean time Kanzig got sent away as basically a contract dump in the Lack deal because he's been nothing more than an ECHLer the whole time and was a waste of a bloody contract.

Just really dumb stuff.

[Barca]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Will Granlund be in the league next year?

why wouldn't he be?

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Barca

why wouldn't he be?

I don’t watch Van when I don’t have to , so can’t add colour

2 seasons ago he had 19 G 32 P in 68 GP
Last season 53 GP 8 G 4 A

Those numbers went the wrong direction pretty sharply

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by Barca

why wouldn't he be?

Because we have to win that trade man!

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Barca

why wouldn't he be?

Because he is a very marginal NHL player.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Because he is a very marginal NHL player.

On a team that is losing two Sedins. Can't see them depleting depth like Granlund when they're already losing two top two line forwards.

[dino7c]

Every team has a handful of moves that look terrible with the benefit of hindsight

[GullFoss]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Every team has a handful of moves that look terrible with the benefit of hindsight

Losing Byron on waivers looked super questionable when it was being done.

Sure...the league also has a bunch of trades that looked stupid the day they were announced. Here's a taste of the high profiled ones:

Suban for Weber
Brassard for Zibanejad
Reinhart to the oilers
Hall for Larson
Eberle for Strone
McDonagh for Gomez
Seguin for Eriksson

The interesting thing here is the quality of the teams on the losing end of these trades.

[Barca]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I don’t watch Van when I don’t have to , so can’t add colour

2 seasons ago he had 19 G 32 P in 68 GP
Last season 53 GP 8 G 4 A

Those numbers went the wrong direction pretty sharply

he was put on a checking role with Eriksson and Sutter and was one of Green's key penalty killers before he got injured.

[Go_Flames4ever]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

Losing Byron on waivers looked super questionable when it was being done.

Sure...the league also has a bunch of trades that looked stupid the day they were announced. Here's a taste of the high profiled ones:

Suban for Weber
Brassard for Zibanejad
Reinhart to the oilers
Hall for Larson
Eberle for Strone
McDonagh for Gomez
Seguin for Eriksson

The interesting thing here is the quality of the teams on the losing end of these trades.

Of all these listed trades, only one didn't involve a Canadian team losing the trade badly. Interesting...

[Rick M.]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

Losing Byron on waivers looked super questionable when it was being done.

Sure...the league also has a bunch of trades that looked stupid the day they were announced. Here's a taste of the high profiled ones:

Suban for Weber
Brassard for Zibanejad
Reinhart to the oilers
Hall for Larson
Eberle for Strone
McDonagh for Gomez
Seguin for Eriksson

The interesting thing here is the quality of the teams on the losing end of these trades.

You can add Panarin for Saad to that list.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Or this one.

In 2013 the Flames front office drafts Keegan Kanzig 67th overall and John Gilmour 198th overall.

After 6 months "they" decide that Kanzing needs to be inked to an ELC. 6 months? WTF? They have 2 years to evaluate this guy before a decision needs to be made.

Fast forward a couple years later, and "they" decide Gilmour isn't worth and ELC and cut him loose. The Rangers however offer the kid an ELC and he goes on to have 1.5 solid years in the AHL and then plays 28 games in the NHL. I don't know if he's going to be a full time NHLer or not, but in the mean time Kanzig got sent away as basically a contract dump in the Lack deal because he's been nothing more than an ECHLer the whole time and was a waste of a bloody contract.

Just really dumb stuff.

I agree Kanzig was dumb no matter how you look at it as he was a guy they probably could have picked in the 4th or 5th round. Waste of a 3rd round pick essentially. Really though it's not like there was a spot for Gilmour on the big club. At least he's getting an opportunity to play for the Rangers as that wasn't going to happen in Calgary with better players ahead of him on the depth chart.