[News Roundup] Garbage bag day: Monahan had 4 surgeries!

[GoJetsGo]

Also:

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Last year I was an Oilers fan as they had their first good team in a decade.

Check and mate. Can't believe anyone indulges this guy with how see through his schtick is.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by TOfan

It's fine to be a fan of hockey and not just s Flames fan.

However, you are laying it on a little thick. No way are the Canucks closer to being a top 8 team in the west than the Flames.

He is not a Flames fan at all. All of his posts are jabs at the Flames. He is a a very good troll though, he does not break any rules but can stir things up.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think the appropriate approach would be to treat the Hitmen just like any other organization. The Hitmen, for the most part, have not been great at producing NHL players.

While I get where you are going with that, it makes no logical sense.

From the perspective of individual players, yes, being local is meaningless, and you have to treat all potential prospects equally/rationally (location should not matter).

But from the perspective of the Hitmen, and talking to them, if you treat them like every other organization, you are even. But if you work closer with them, and attempt to gain insights that other organizations are not privy to, you can only end up ahead (there is no downside).

Of course they should be trying to leverage their relationship with the Hitmen.

And the fact that the Hitmen don't have a great track record, is another thing the Flames organization should be working hard to rectify.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I would hope the Flames staff is tracking all the prospects. Just because he is in your backyard shouldn't matter. The reality is that Point was draft 79th overall, so its not like just the Flames passed on him
The Lightning themselves drafted Jonathan Macleod in the 2nd round 3 picks after Smith was taken. Idiots!

They also drafted Dominik Masin in the 2nd round 1 pick after McDonald.
Fools!
It is just way to easy to make these decisions years later.

This is a cop out and I used to feel the same but with the Flames it seems 99% of the time you look back on their drafts and do this because it's rarely the other way around. These scouts are paid to use foresight to figure out what the rest of us have to use hindsight for.

It's funny how more often than not it's the same group of teams that manage to pull high level NHLers from the depths of the draft, and continue to toil away at the top of the standings because of it. They may have a bad year or two while they retool but before you know it they are back on top because they aren't completely incompetent at finding elite talent throughout the draft.

Teams like Anaheim, Boston, Tampa, Nashville and San Jose for example.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

This is a cop out and I used to feel the same but with the Flames it seems 99% of the time you look back on their drafts and do this because it's rarely the other way around. These scouts are paid to use foresight to figure out what the rest of us have to use hindsight for.

It's funny how more often than not it's the same group of teams that manage to pull high level NHLers from the depths of the draft, and continue to toil away at the top of the standings because of it. They may have a bad year or two while they retool but before you know it they are back on top because they aren't completely incompetent at finding elite talent throughout the draft.

Teams like Anaheim, Boston, Tampa, Nashville and San Jose for example.

You're quite right, of course. It's not like the Flames have ever managed to get a decent NHL player out of the fourth round.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

You're quite right, of course. It's not like the Flames have ever managed to get a decent NHL player out of the fourth round.

I didn't say they never hit. They don't hit often enough is the problem.

[jayswin]

nm

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I didn't say they never hit. They don't hit often enough is the problem.

You said ‘99% of the time’. That's as close to never as makes no difference.

Actually, it's probably true that 99% of the time you look back on drafts and complain, because you seem to have this fantasy that a good GM never misses out on a player who will have a better career than the BPA on draft day.

Players don't develop at equal rates or hit their ceiling at predictable times, and nobody has a crystal ball.

[GioforPM]

Ferland was 5th round and Brodie and Kulak were 4th, FWIW. Gillies was a 3rd rounder.

[Roof-Daddy]

Look at Anaheim for example Jay.

They hit on Ritchie, Montour and Kase in 2014. (We got Bennett, McDonald, Hunter Smith, Hickey AOM and Carroll)

Because they hit on Montour they were able to trade Vatanen (a 4th round pick) for a very good #2 NHL center.

In 2013 they hit on Theodore. Right in the same area the Flames picked up gems like Poirier and Klimchuk. But hey, they lost Theodore for squat because of expansion. But they are still a playoff team because they hit on other D like Lindholm, Fowler and Manson (6th round pick). Lindholm and Fowler were 1st rounders, but teasm like Anaheim not only hit deep in the draft,but they rarely waste high picks unlike Calgary.

In the 2012 draft they hit on Frederik Andersen (3rd round after Gillies) and collected a pile of NHL wins from him before trading him for more picks becasue they had already drafted John Gibson (39th overall).

They drafted Palmieri 26th OA, a 20+ goal 50+ point winger and flipped him for picks.
They drafted Rackell 30th overall, a legit top 6 forward.
They drafted 40 goal scorer William Karlsson 59th OA and ####ed up by trading him too early but are still a perennial playoff team because they continue to draft well all the damn time.

They drafted Justin Schultz, and he screwed them.
They drafted Jake Gardiner and traded him for a vet Dman.

None of that matters. Playoffs, division title, division title, playoffs, division title, over and over and over for Anaheim.

But yeah, let's hang our hats on the Flames and their two massive hits outside the 1st round in the last 10 years in Brodie and Johnny.

How anyone can point to just Johnny, Brodie, Ferland and defend the Flames drafting and development at this point is beyond me.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

You said ‘99% of the time’. That's as close to never as makes no difference.

Actually, it's probably true that 99% of the time you look back on drafts and complain, because you seem to have this fantasy that a good GM never misses out on a player who will have a better career than the BPA on draft day.

Players don't develop at equal rates or hit their ceiling at predictable times, and nobody has a crystal ball.

Scouts are paid to have a crystal ball, and the ones that do stand in the shadows of contenders and perennial playoff teams.

The Flames scouts find juuuust enough good players to stay completely mediocre.

[868904]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Look at Anaheim for example Jay.

They hit on Ritchie, Montour and Kase in 2014. (We got Bennett, McDonald, Hunter Smith, Hickey AOM and Carroll)

Because they hit on Montour they were able to trade Vatanen (a 4th round pick) for a very good #2 NHL center.

In 2013 they hit on Theodore. Right in the same area the Flames picked up gems like Poirier and Klimchuk. But hey, they lost Theodore for squat because of expansion. But they are still a playoff team because they hit on other D like Lindholm, Fowler and Manson (6th round pick). Lindholm and Fowler were 1st rounders, but teasm like Anaheim not only hit deep in the draft,but they rarely waste high picks unlike Calgary.

In the 2012 draft they hit on Frederik Andersen (3rd round after Gillies) and collected a pile of NHL wins from him before trading him for more picks becasue they had already drafted John Gibson (39th overall).

They drafted Palmieri 26th OA, a 20+ goal 50+ point winger and flipped him for picks.
They drafted Rackell 30th overall, a legit top 6 forward.
They drafted 40 goal scorer William Karlsson 59th OA and ####ed up by trading him too early but are still a perennial playoff team because they continue to draft well all the damn time.

They drafted Justin Schultz, and he screwed them.
They drafted Jake Gardiner and traded him for a vet Dman.

None of that matters. Playoffs, division title, division title, playoffs, division title, over and over and over for Anaheim.

But yeah, let's hang our hats on the Flames and their two massive hits outside the 1st round in the last 10 years in Brodie and Johnny.

How anyone can point to just Johnny, Brodie, Ferland and defend the Flames drafting and development at this point is beyond me.

Totally agree with what you said, but while I hate Treliving's coaching decisions, i do like the direction of his drafting. He does seem to focus more on skill by drafting guys like Mangiapane, Dube, Philips, Fox, Valimaki, Anderson, Kylington, etc.

I know he was GM in 2014, but I don't think he got the job prior to the draft and i'm not sure how much input he was allowed to give. Don't know for sure if he was responsible for duds like Hunter Smith, Mason Mcdonald, etc. Honestly, when I look at the Coyotes 2014 selections, that looks more like a Treliving draft than the Flames one. The Flames selections have Burke written all over it. Truculance and size up and down; a Burke-Leaf era draft list.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

This is a cop out and I used to feel the same but with the Flames it seems 99% of the time you look back on their drafts and do this because it's rarely the other way around. These scouts are paid to use foresight to figure out what the rest of us have to use hindsight for.

It's funny how more often than not it's the same group of teams that manage to pull high level NHLers from the depths of the draft, and continue to toil away at the top of the standings because of it. They may have a bad year or two while they retool but before you know it they are back on top because they aren't completely incompetent at finding elite talent throughout the draft.

Teams like Anaheim, Boston, Tampa, Nashville and San Jose for example.

It’s fair to look overall and assess the ability of a team to draft well though I would note that objective evaluations made have ranked the Flames middle of the road
But slamming the Flames for passing on Point when the Lightninf also did with virtually the same picks seems unfair

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Look at Anaheim for example Jay.

They hit on Ritchie, Montour and Kase in 2014. (We got Bennett, McDonald, Hunter Smith, Hickey AOM and Carroll)

Because they hit on Montour they were able to trade Vatanen (a 4th round pick) for a very good #2 NHL center.

In 2013 they hit on Theodore. Right in the same area the Flames picked up gems like Poirier and Klimchuk. But hey, they lost Theodore for squat because of expansion. But they are still a playoff team because they hit on other D like Lindholm, Fowler and Manson (6th round pick). Lindholm and Fowler were 1st rounders, but teasm like Anaheim not only hit deep in the draft,but they rarely waste high picks unlike Calgary.

In the 2012 draft they hit on Frederik Andersen (3rd round after Gillies) and collected a pile of NHL wins from him before trading him for more picks becasue they had already drafted John Gibson (39th overall).

They drafted Palmieri 26th OA, a 20+ goal 50+ point winger and flipped him for picks.
They drafted Rackell 30th overall, a legit top 6 forward.
They drafted 40 goal scorer William Karlsson 59th OA and ####ed up by trading him too early but are still a perennial playoff team because they continue to draft well all the damn time.

They drafted Justin Schultz, and he screwed them.
They drafted Jake Gardiner and traded him for a vet Dman.

None of that matters. Playoffs, division title, division title, playoffs, division title, over and over and over for Anaheim.

But yeah, let's hang our hats on the Flames and their two massive hits outside the 1st round in the last 10 years in Brodie and Johnny.

How anyone can point to just Johnny, Brodie, Ferland and defend the Flames drafting and development at this point is beyond me.

Nailed it. Absolutely nailed it.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Except most of those comparisons were prior to bt taking over

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Ferland was 5th round and Brodie and Kulak were 4th, FWIW. Gillies was a 3rd rounder.

But what is Gillies an example of? He's a draft pick that we are still uncertain about. It appears you're putting him into a group of later round hits?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Except most of those comparisons were prior to bt taking over

Oh yes, sorry Jiri, I got caught up in cheering along to the scathing review of our drafting frustration, hence the "nailed it".

Emotions are part of being a fan I suppose! Yes, it is important to note that drafting strategy has appeared to improve. The criticism of moving picks to add quicker fixes instead of just hammering as many lottery tickets as possible while rebuilding is quite valid though.

I view that as a huge hindrance to our progression.

[jayswin]

The bulk of RoofDaddy's post highlighting Anaheim for example is so apt. So many picks, so many good picks that they can afford to move prospects that we in Calgary would consider immovable gold because they have a bunch of other prospects that we'd consider immovable gold.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Except most of those comparisons were prior to bt taking over

My hissy fit salty bitter rant has more to do with the scouting staff than the current GM. Button has been around for quite a whlle and like I said drafted just well enough for the Flames to remain mediocre at best.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by jayswin

The bulk of RoofDaddy's post highlighting Anaheim for example is so apt. So many picks, so many good picks that they can afford to move prospects that we in Calgary would consider immovable gold because they have a bunch of other prospects that we'd consider immovable gold.

Quantity of picks is I think the main issue
More bullets in the chamber = more chances to hit