Sam Bennett Value: Have the Flames held on TOO long? OR is he awesome?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

I actually feel stupid for even suggesting this but no I'm not 100% closed off on the idea. He's great at generating speed thru the neutral zone and gaining the zone when playing with confidence.

If there's a change in his linemates and perhaps a new voice coach, I'd be willing to give it some time in camp.

Yeah, me neither. I feel like he's had more success as a winger but then, he played with Backlund and Jankowski as a winger and with lesser players as a C. The trouble is that Jankowski is most definitely a C, and then you have Monahan and Backlund, so where are you playing Bennett as C. The only way to even see if he has something is to play Jankowski as a wing with Bennett sometimes.

BTW: voice coach?

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

At age 21, Boeser, playing with Vanek and Gagner, was scoring at a 0.8 ppg pace before going down with injury. At age 21, Bennett, playing with linemates that would not even make most other NHL rosters, scored approximately 0.3 ppg.

Gagner cleared waivers not that long ago. Vanek had to sign a 2M show-me contract. These aren't Gretzky and Lemieux that Boeser was playing with.

But, forgetting that, why are we comparing an older Bennett to a younger Boeser who was on pace for 39 goals as a 20 year old this season! Bennett put up 13 in his 20 year old season.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

so does everyone at least agree that the Bennett failed as a centre and going forward should be a winger?

No?


Bennett played wing this year and center last year and was more useful last year. His best play came playing center under Hartley and his biggest impact on the game is when he isn't constrained to the walls.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

At age 21, Boeser, playing with Vanek and Gagner, was scoring at a 0.8 ppg pace before going down with injury. At age 21, Bennett, playing with linemates that would not even make most other NHL rosters, scored approximately 0.3 ppg. Boeser got 1st line PP time, Bennett 2nd line PP. Bennett lost a year of development to shoulder surgery/reconstruction and is 4 months YOUNGER than Boeser, so Boeser is essentially 16 months ahead on the development curve and played with substantially better linemates and in more favourable situations. Boeser is considered to possibly be the future face of the Canucks' franchise, and was possibly the leading candidate for rookie of the year before being injured. And yet people want to use Bennett as a throw-in on a trade or give him away for virtually nothing.

If you want another example, look at Nathan MacKinnon. He is almost 2 years older than Bennett. Two years ago, he scored 38 points (in 64 games), last year he scored 53, and this year 97. Considering the year of development lost, this could be considered to be how Bennett projects to perform 3 years from now. Patience paid off with MacKinnon, and it could with Bennett.

Bennett has 2 main problems: being inserted into the lineup too early in his career instead of maturing in the minors (and as a result, not being able to be sent down for seasoning due to waivers), and being on a team that was fortunate to have 2 players (Monahan and Tkachuk) who were ready to make the step right away, making him seem a disappointment in comparison.

Give him 1-2 more years, and I suspect we will be thinking differently about Bennett. Remember, he is at least 2 years younger than any of the core members aside from Tkachuk, and again, he plays in less favourable situations with inferior linemates, and he lost a year of development due to his shoulder.

Trading away Bennett would possibly be a bigger mistake than the Oilers trading away Hall, because he would only recoup pennies on the dollar. Considering his ceiling, I would rather take a chance that he will still reach his potential, rather than having what little we would get in return for him.

I'm with you on your approach with Bennett, but if you're expecting him to transform into anything that resembles any of the players you cite, that would be a remarkable transformation. MacKinnon? Hall????

That's like saying in in 2000 we should just be patient with Rico fata because he's about to turn into Pavel Bure.

[Oling_Roachinen]

MacKinnon, Boeser, Schefiele, I just don't see the comparisons

MacKinnon lead his team in scoring, by far, as a 21 year old. Yes that was 53 points, but that's because of how bad the Avalanche were that season. He was still their best player before he broke out offensively this year.

Boeser is a rookie who was on pace for 39 goals before going down.

Schefiele has improved every season in his career up until he became a PPG player.

Bennett has had three seasons in a row where he regressed. His career path is far closer to the likes of Yakupov or Ryan Strome, except he never had a season as good as either of those guys.

[CliffFletcher]

Tried and true Flames fan assessment of a prospect or young player:

Too soon to tell
Too soon to tell
Too soon to tell
Too soon to tell
Never speak of him again

[The Boy Wonder]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Tried and true Flames fan assessment of a prospect or young player:

Too soon to tell
Too soon to tell
Too soon to tell
Too soon to tell
Never speak of him again

Pretty sure that’s only half of us on here.

The rest:

He’s a bust trade him
He’s a bust trade him
He’s a bust we overpaid him
He’s ok but overpaid
Hes too old we should’ve traded him

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

MacKinnon, Boeser, Schefiele, I just don't see the comparisons

MacKinnon lead his team in scoring, by far, as a 21 year old. Yes that was 53 points, but that's because of how bad the Avalanche were that season. He was still their best player before he broke out offensively this year.

Boeser is a rookie who was on pace for 39 goals before going down.

Schefiele has improved every season in his career up until he became a PPG player.

Bennett has had three seasons in a row where he regressed. His career path is far closer to the likes of Yakupov or Ryan Strome, except he never had a season as good as either of those guys.

Man, Can you imagine if Bennett became a Ryan Strome type? We could trade him for a way better player. Like Jordan Eberle! Something something silver linings something something.

[Grimbl420]

Bennett is as much a bust as Backlund was at the same amount of games played and has nowhere near the amount of injury concerns Backlund did.

He's got one year left on his show me contract. I'm not willing to consider him being a bust until after next season.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

No one should be calling Yashin a bust.
He was nearly a PPG player for 850 games.
Nothing about him was a bust, let alone one of the biggest busts of all time.

Ya I got my Senator draft picks mixed up, oops

[timbit]

( posted this in Trade Speculation Thread]

Sam, from my observations, has a major problem is in his game. The good news is that it can be remedied. It will take a lot of commitment and discipline from him and probably a lot of help from a qualified mental skills coach.

His mental skills ,look to me , to be his greatest liability. He has high expectations, I am sure, as he is very skilled and talented . However, Sam is easily distracted ( bad pass by a teammate , poor choice by himself, not playing as much as he thinks he deserves etc.}and as a result loses his focus. There is a direct correlation between positive mental energy and positive physical energy. ....negative mental energy and negative physical energy.

Pre game

Starting 18 hours before leaving for the rink for game ...8 five minute mental preparation sessions by himself focused on...

1) MENTAL REHEARSAL - reviewing systems in all zones, special teams role and responsibilities, face off situations and responsibilities etc
Result- he is acting and reacting at top speed when the game starts. The game is to fast to think during the game.

2) MENTAL IMAGERY- building his own mental highlight film that he can see in his minds eye. Great things he has done in previous games..etc. Geeting jack about how good you are going to perform.

3) SELF TALK- talking yourself and your game up based on when you are at your best.

IN GAME

1) PARK NEGATIVE ENERGY- Have a symbol on the butt end of your stick. Whether it be a bad call , bad play by teammate , opponent , something you didn’t like that was said by a coach...etc. Focus on the symbol and get rid of all of the ####ty thoughts by parking them on the symbol ,,,,takes focus. After every shift, as soon as you come back to bench.

2) RESET- inhale through nose- 4 seconds... hold for 4 seconds...exhale through mouth for 4 seconds.
3 Sets.

3) MENTAL IMAGERY again . Get excited about how good you are going to be next shift.

If you come off the ice and have a negative attitude regarding your last shift and do not use a routine to reset...you will regress the next shift.

To reiterate , the correlation is so strong between positive/ negative mental energy and positive / negative physical energy . It is quite amazing and scientifically proven.



Bottom line...doing the WORK before the game would allow Sam to be excited about how good he is going to be as opposed to worrying about mistakes and other useless things. The game would become fun for him again.

This unwillingness or ignorance of building a reliable mental preparation routine and in game “ stay in the moment “ routine ( between shifts) are some of the major reasons he looks so weak at times on his skates and takes so many undisciplined penalties. When he is “on” ...he is fast, strong on the puck , makes good plays, instinctively. These instances are few and far between.

In game resets, If you doubt me, just look at Sams facial expressions during a game.
Frustration, weakness and negativity personified.

Bottom line...whatever you’re telling yourself you’re probably right.

IMO, the positive difference in his game would be markedly noticeable with corresponding positive results.

[Lumby Lager]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

No?


Bennett played wing this year and center last year and was more useful last year. His best play came playing center under Hartley and his biggest impact on the game is when he isn't constrained to the walls.

I think he still has a decent chance of developing into a reliable center as well. If anything he will be a good all round forward that can play all three positions and that depth is great, he is good at faceoffs as well. Didn’t he play most of the one year under Hartley on the left with Backlund and Frolik?

[Stay Golden]

I prefer Sammy more as a Winger than as a C.
At wing he causes more havoc for defenders. I like his game when ia a banger.
Only thing that can be annoying is how often he can lose the puck on his own stick handling.
If Bennett wants to improve his game that is the first thing he should practice practice practice. Second is shooting accuracy.
Not sure what his stats are C vs Wing but I'm sure one of the stat gurus could dig that up.
Bottom line there is more upside to Bennett than down.
I could see him shopped by Treliving only if he wants to get a low draft pick having none because Bennett would be worth that to several GM's.

[dustygoon]

Originally Posted by pepper24

Bennett continues to decline since his rookie season. He'll be coming up in the last year of his 2 year "show-me" contract with a poor showing. Not hopeful that will change. Mediocre on the 3rd line as a winger and disaster as a center on same line. Top players get hurt near end of season and he didn't step up. Don't hold much hope but at same time not sure he has much trade value. Maybe can get traded for another reclamation project.

We're fortunate that Monahan and Thachuk have panned out as high picks. You cannot win them all.

Top 5 draft pick talent with grit and meanness. It’s not over yet.

GG gets blamed for a lot of problems....some unwarranted. But I think he has over coached him. Kid needs to be allowed to make mistakes and let loose.

If I was another team I would try my damndest to steal him.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by TOfan

I'm with you on your approach with Bennett, but if you're expecting him to transform into anything that resembles any of the players you cite, that would be a remarkable transformation. MacKinnon? Hall????

That's like saying in in 2000 we should just be patient with Rico fata because he's about to turn into Pavel Bure.

I'm only comparing him with Hall because we don't yet know what he will be, but chances are it will be a lot more than he is now, just like Hall became after being traded.

For the most part, MacKinnon scored those points on the first line. How much time has Bennett spent on the first line? MacKinnon has had a "remarkable transformation", but it's consistent with what you would expect based on his age and ability. Two years ago, or even last year, you could have argued that MacKinnon was a bust for a 1st overall, but look at him now. His greatest jump in performance occurred when he was 22, and in a situation where he was given the best opportunities to succeed.

The opportunity cost of being patient (maybe trading Bennett for a late 2nd rounder) is way less than the potential loss if he does reach anywhere near the ceiling that all of the scouts were anticipating before the draft that year. You'd basically be trading him for someone who would likely never play in the NHL for more than a cup of coffee, or at best a 4th liner. I do believe he still has the potential at his age to be at least an excellent 2nd line centre. Are you going to get anywhere near the equivalent of that potential in return?

Yes, I do believe that we have seen less progression in Bennett's game than we should. However, that lack of progression has plagued almost every player under Gulutzan (the fact that it hasn't affected Johnny too much shows just how special he is). Let's dump GG first, get someone who can restore the team's confidence and utilize their speed and skill, then give Bennett a year or two to see what he can do. Definitely bridge contract "show me" material.

Just keep in mind that he's 21. Most players that age are still in the minors, which is where he should have been until now.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by TOfan

I'm with you on your approach with Bennett, but if you're expecting him to transform into anything that resembles any of the players you cite, that would be a remarkable transformation. MacKinnon? Hall????

That's like saying in in 2000 we should just be patient with Rico fata because he's about to turn into Pavel Bure.

Come on, now. In ~2000 Rico Fata was in his third year where he had dressed for the Flames and had all of 1 assist.

Bennett as a rookie had 18 goals and 36 points, and has had 2 disappointing seasons since.

2 seasons on a third line in the blender, with the coach that broke Brodie, took Gio from 55-60 points to below 40, and turned a perpetual 20 goal guy Brouwer in to a guy being discussed by fans as a buyout candidate.

Rico Fata to Pavel Bure is more like Sam Bennett to Gretzky

But kudos to the poster for trying to respond seriously

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Come on, now. In ~2000 Rico Fata was in his third year where he had dressed for the Flames and had all of 1 assist.

Bennett as a rookie had 18 goals and 36 points, and has had 2 disappointing seasons since.

2 seasons on a third line in the blender, with the coach that broke Brodie, took Gio from 55-60 points to below 40, and turned a perpetual 20 goal guy Brouwer in to a guy being discussed by fans as a buyout candidate.

Rico Fata to Pavel Bure is more like Sam Bennett to Gretzky

But kudos to the poster for trying to respond seriously

you can't blame the coach for any of that. partly, perhaps because of his system, but not the majority of the blame.

he may be a factor in brodie, but only one of many. and GG did nothing to Brouwer. he did that to himself.
for Gio, perhaps his point totals went down as he was deferring to Hamilton on offense, and also having to focus on his defense to cover for Hamilton, too.

cop out to blame the coach for Bennett's struggles.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

you can't blame the coach for any of that. partly, perhaps because of his system, but not the majority of the blame.

he may be a factor in brodie, but only one of many. and GG did nothing to Brouwer. he did that to himself.
for Gio, perhaps his point totals went down as he was deferring to Hamilton on offense, and also having to focus on his defense to cover for Hamilton, too.

cop out to blame the coach for Bennett's struggles.

Several players underachieved on his watch. Individually and collectively. System is bad, team is awful, assets are devalued. Damn right I disagree with you, blame the coach, and unapologetically.

[---Hatrick---]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Several players underachieved on his watch. Individually and collectively. System is bad, team is awful, assets are devalued. Damn right I disagree with you, blame the coach, and unapologetically.

Monahan (while injured), Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Ferland all had career years. Hamilton was the leader amongst D men in goals scored. Yes, some players underachieved, but several had great years. Im not advocating keeping GG, just pointing that out

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by ---Hatrick---

Monahan (while injured), Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Ferland all had career years. Hamilton was the leader amongst D men in goals scored. Yes, some players underachieved, but several had great years. Im not advocating keeping GG, just pointing that out

Yet goal scoring overall is down as compared to the previous regime, even though the overall talent is up.

I had posted a possible explanation a while back from watching the last few games in particular - the 'good shooters' on the team seem to be able to better pick corners, while the poorer shooters are struggling. Why? The Flames simply don't make the goalie move enough it seems in a game-to-game basis, and a lot of shots are coming off while the goalie is square and in position to make a save.

I noticed that in some of the games, though the Flames out-shot the opposing goalie, it SEEMED like the Flames' goalie was getting more of a workout.

I think that is a POTENTIAL underling reason why the top shooters are having more points (in part, because they are getting better too and you expect an increase there). They are simply better at picking corners, or have a more deceptive shot.