Francis: Treliving filled with disappointment, anger after team's collapse

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

This caught my eye as I was catching up on this thread, wanted to just point out that it’s pretty easy thing to show. As much of an anchor we believe Brouwer to be on the PP, we’re not the only league with one.

Sorted by PP TOI:
H. Sedin VAN - 237 min - 0G (17A)
R. Getzlag ANA - 157 min - 0G (13A)
V. Sobotka STL - 137 min - 0G (3A)
A. Ladd NYI - 127 min - 0G (1A)
J. Armia WPG - 117 min - 0G (4A)
P. Sharp CHI - 107 min - 0G (4A)
Z. Smith OTT - 103 min - 0G (3A)
T. Brouwer CGY - 93 min - 0G (5A)
S. Milano CBJ - 91 min - 0G (4A)
C. Coyle MIN - 90 min - 0G (3A)

So, while the top two guys contributed with assists, Brouwer has pretty similar numbers to the rest of the group. He’s not very good, but we need to stop acting like GG putting him on the PP makes Gulutzan remarkably bad. Coaches like Maurice and Quenville did the exact same thing.

Brouwer pro rates to 13 assists in 237 min. Not great but not too far off of what Sedin did.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

This caught my eye as I was catching up on this thread, wanted to just point out that it’s pretty easy thing to show. As much of an anchor we believe Brouwer to be on the PP, we’re not the only league with one.

Sorted by PP TOI:
H. Sedin VAN - 237 min - 0G (17A)
R. Getzlag ANA - 157 min - 0G (13A)
V. Sobotka STL - 137 min - 0G (3A)
A. Ladd NYI - 127 min - 0G (1A)
J. Armia WPG - 117 min - 0G (4A)
P. Sharp CHI - 107 min - 0G (4A)
Z. Smith OTT - 103 min - 0G (3A)
T. Brouwer CGY - 93 min - 0G (5A)
S. Milano CBJ - 91 min - 0G (4A)
C. Coyle MIN - 90 min - 0G (3A)

So, while the top two guys contributed with assists, Brouwer has pretty similar numbers to the rest of the group. He’s not very good, but we need to stop acting like GG putting him on the PP makes Gulutzan remarkably bad. Coaches like Maurice and Quenville did the exact same thing.

Wasn't Sharp a guy people were advocating for at the deadline? Grass is greener and all that.

I totally agree that Brouwer on the first unit at the top of the year was a bad idea. Where I disagree is that Gulutzen rigidly stuck with that strategy. He maybe stuck with it a little longer than people wanted, but coaches are usually more patient than fans. Once again, if you look at PP TOI game by game, he was used in different ways at different times, but not getting top unit time, typically.

I can also buy the argument that a big screen in front of the net isn't perhaps the best PP strategy (especially when your shooters can't get the puck to that area very well). When Brouwer was moved and when the points were changed around they went to a bit of a different setup, with Tkachuk off to the side a bit.

[PaperBagger'14]

Regardless of what other coaches did do unsuccessfully doesn't change how I view GG. It's a glaring mistake that could have been fixed but wasnt. The main difference that I see is that GG is stuck in his ways with many things (PP roster, overplaying the 4th line, not making use of timeouts). I don't follow Quenneville or Maurice that closely, but Q has former success and Maurice has current success.

GG has not succeeded at the NHL level.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

Regardless of what other coaches did do unsuccessfully doesn't change how I view GG. It's a glaring mistake that could have been fixed but wasnt. The main difference that I see is that GG is stuck in his ways with many things (PP roster, overplaying the 4th line, not making use of timeouts). I don't follow Quenneville or Maurice that closely, but Q has former success and Maurice has current success.

GG has not succeeded at the NHL level.

https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/...s/troy-brouwer

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

Regardless of what other coaches did do unsuccessfully doesn't change how I view GG. It's a glaring mistake that could have been fixed but wasnt.

I think PepsiFree's breakdown amply demonstrates that this was not actually a "glaring mistake," and rather in context a fairly typical coaching decision. And that is the point: criticism of the coaches is absolutely warranted, but not every complaint is a fair criticism.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/...s/troy-brouwer

Not sure what you're getting at by posting a whole bunch of stats, but for a guy getting 1-3 minutes of PP time per game to have 5 assists and 0 goals isn't good at all.

Pepsi's post was well thought out and yes other coaches did it too. Just because other coaches utilized underperforming players as well doesnt make GG right, it makes all of them wrong. This is all my opinion of course.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

Not sure what you're getting at by posting a whole bunch of stats, but for a guy getting 1-3 minutes of PP time per game to have 5 assists and 0 goals isn't good at all.

What I'm getting at is that your statement that he didn't change his "glaring mistake" is just untrue. Look at the game logs. Look at the quarterly splits. He took him right off the powerplay after 15 games or so, then played him limited minutes thereafter (usually when injuries happened and he had to turn to a guy that had actually practiced PP before). Saying GG arrogantly stuck with it is just false.

[The Boy Wonder]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

What I'm getting at is that your statement that he didn't change his "glaring mistake" is just untrue. Look at the game logs. Look at the quarterly splits. He took him right off the powerplay after 15 games or so, then played him limited minutes thereafter (usually when injuries happened and he had to turn to a guy that had actually practiced PP before). Saying GG arrogantly stuck with it is just false.

I don’t think he ever used the word arrogant, you are interpreting that and it is hyperbole.

GG was generally on the more “rigid” side of player usage, I recall reading an article on the athletic showing that he stuck with consistent line combos more often than ~2/3 of coaches in the league. Although that doesn’t totally relate to the topic of Brouwers PP usage it does show that he was more set in forcing things to work (or patience or whatever you want to call it) than most coaches.

When results don’t match up with expectations heading into the season we want to find out why and player usage is one thing that is easy to point to

[Atlantica]

In Francis' SN article published today he does not take ownership of pointing daggers at Monahan upon learning about the 4 surgeries. He simply passes the buck suggesting that some people have questioned Monahan's commitment and that has been proven wrong. It would be nice if he admitted he was wrong. Many people disagreed with his comments at the time and his unsubstantiated claims - a real journalist should own up to his errors and apologize. Lame.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I think PepsiFree's breakdown amply demonstrates that this was not actually a "glaring mistake," and rather in context a fairly typical coaching decision. And that is the point: criticism of the coaches is absolutely warranted, but not every complaint is a fair criticism.

To that end, I didn’t even include guys who had maybe 1 goal, or a worse point percentage based on minutes.

Of those, there are 43.

43 forwards in the NHL who were objectively worse producers on the power play than Brouwer and yet played more (sometimes many more) minutes.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by The Boy Wonder

I don’t think he ever used the word arrogant, you are interpreting that and it is hyperbole.

GG was generally on the more “rigid” side of player usage, I recall reading an article on the athletic showing that he stuck with consistent line combos more often than ~2/3 of coaches in the league. Although that doesn’t totally relate to the topic of Brouwers PP usage it does show that he was more set in forcing things to work (or patience or whatever you want to call it) than most coaches.

When results don’t match up with expectations heading into the season we want to find out why and player usage is one thing that is easy to point to

OK, substitute rigidly for arrogant (which I've seen plenty on this board and it just doesn't track). Point stands. He didn't stick with the usage for more than 15 games.

A lot of the consistent line combos that lead to that stat are the unchanging first and second lines. They never changed, except for injuries to Ferland and Frolik, nor should they have, based on the success they had. He actually changed up the third and fourth lines a fair bit.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Stay Golden

We have been STH since 2002 16 years and have already contacted the Flames Ticket manager not to bother asking for a ST renewal if Gulutzan is not fired by then. That if the Flames want us to care and spend our money then they as a professional organization starting with Treliving has to show the fans he cares by leading the way to the fans and fire Gulutzan.

I will give my perspective. I am one of the oldest on this site if not the oldest. I started watching hockey with my Dad when it was still the Big 6 League. We were rabid Leafs fans and we could not wait for Hockey Night in Canada on Saturday nights. We owned the TV on Saturday nights.

Never had a TV while attending university so got out of hockey a bit then. Moved to Calgary and got right back into it when the Flames came to town. Never got season tickets right away but had them by the time the Flames had their first Stanley Cup appearance. We shared the season with friends. My friends always called me the #1 Flames Fan...loved this team.

We went to 1/4 season ticket holders around 2000. We lived in the country then and there were a lot of 7 pm starts...just too hard to rush home and get back into town again.

Then my husband died, I moved into Calgary, and kept that 1/4 season ticket because I had a grandson then and wanted to introduce him to hockey when he was old enough. I took him to his first games when Hartley took the Flames to the playoffs. What a GREAT year to introduce a young boy to hockey...such exciting hockey.

I gave up my last holding last year. I have watched a lot of hockey...and I mean a LOT of hockey. GG's hockey has been the absolute worst and by far. I never thought I would say that after watching Young Guns hockey and Brent Sutter hockey.

GG's hockey has killed my hockey spirit. My grandson wanted to attend a few games this year so I bought some tickets...very easy to get but then even he stopped asking to go to anymore games. The Flames lost every game we attended and not one game held any excitement except the game against the Leafs where the Flames were down 6-1 and had a sudden flurry and lost by 7-5.

I have the TV on for games but rarely watch. IF I hear the horn that we have scored, I might go and watch the replay. This is bad hockey, the wrost hockey ever. I doubt I will even have my TV on in the background next year if there is more GG hockey.

[oldschoolcalgary]

nm

[Stay Golden]

Originally Posted by redforever

I will give my perspective. I am one of the oldest on this site if not the oldest. I started watching hockey with my Dad when it was still the Big 6 League. We were rabid Leafs fans and we could not wait for Hockey Night in Canada on Saturday nights. We owned the TV on Saturday nights.

Never had a TV while attending university so got out of hockey a bit then. Moved to Calgary and got right back into it when the Flames came to town. Never got season tickets right away but had them by the time the Flames had their first Stanley Cup appearance. We shared the season with friends. My friends always called me the #1 Flames Fan...loved this team.

We went to 1/4 season ticket holders around 2000. We lived in the country then and there were a lot of 7 pm starts...just too hard to rush home and get back into town again.

Then my husband died, I moved into Calgary, and kept that 1/4 season ticket because I had a grandson then and wanted to introduce him to hockey when he was old enough. I took him to his first games when Hartley took the Flames to the playoffs. What a GREAT year to introduce a young boy to hockey...such exciting hockey.

I gave up my last holding last year. I have watched a lot of hockey...and I mean a LOT of hockey. GG's hockey has been the absolute worst and by far. I never thought I would say that after watching Young Guns hockey and Brent Sutter hockey.

GG's hockey has killed my hockey spirit. My grandson wanted to attend a few games this year so I bought some tickets...very easy to get but then even he stopped asking to go to anymore games. The Flames lost every game we attended and not one game held any excitement except the game against the Leafs where the Flames were down 6-1 and had a sudden flurry and lost by 7-5.

I have the TV on for games but rarely watch. IF I hear the horn that we have scored, I might go and watch the replay. This is bad hockey, the wrost hockey ever. I doubt I will even have my TV on in the background next year if there is more GG hockey.

I respect your comments greatly and in many ways can relate to pretty much everything except I don't have grandchildren. Two in 20's & one in school.
The reality is for STH under this dibocle under Gulutzan we can't even give our tickets away to friends or family if we are unable to go.
Even at home we at some point of this season shortly after the all-star game I think, reserved to monitoring the games with the Bud glasses they light up we know someone scored we rewind the PVR to see what occurred. It both saddens and angers me that Gulutzan's lack of coaching has had this kind of negative exhausting effect but it has.
I have been a fan since first day on TV of the Coral as has my wife enjoyed many great seasons and many bad ones but this one in particular largely because of the coaching staff and the GM's unwillingness to do something about it and opting to let it all unravel has us seriously wondering why bother to keep going. Those tickets are the cost of another yearly nice family vacation you know. Making Good memories and not enduring frustration like this season.
We both have this sickened feeling that Treliving will not own what has been his biggest mistake and finally fire Gulutzan.
If that doesn't happen we like the luxury of having season tickets all these years but the Flames management will have forced our hands.

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

What I'm getting at is that your statement that he didn't change his "glaring mistake" is just untrue. Look at the game logs. Look at the quarterly splits. He took him right off the powerplay after 15 games or so, then played him limited minutes thereafter (usually when injuries happened and he had to turn to a guy that had actually practiced PP before). Saying GG arrogantly stuck with it is just false.

Why do you keep reiterating the logs/quarter aspect. You already said that (dozens of times now) and I posted the below referencing your "quarterly" assessment and all it does is further justify the fact that Brouwer was given far too much time on the PP, it couldn't be more clear.

What 75% of us are saying is NOT false at all, its fact and your logs that you've researched and posted further prove that.

Originally Posted by GioforPM View Post
Not when you look at the quarter splits, which are available on dobber. Or when you look game by game. He for sure was on the top unit in the first quarter, and obviously in the shortened lineup in the fourth quarter, which skews his numbers for the season. In the second quarter he was taken off altogether, averaging less than 30 seconds per game (in other words, he was being put on in anticipation of it ending). He got on some more after Ferland went out in the third quarter.
So, basically what you're saying then is:

Quote:

So when Versteeg and Jagr were healthy and active on the roster
Which confirms it was a legit choice by the coaching staff

Quote:

At this point it was known he was a waste of time even being on the PP so why not throw ANYONE else out there just to see (Lazar, Hathaway, Harvey)

Quote:

Maybe some hope, but had the odd game where he was thrown onto 1 of the units for whatever reason

Quote:

Again, there was nobody else we could have tried rather than throwing out Brouwer who to this point provided absolutely NOTHING to suggest this time around it would be any different?

Sounds to me like in the grand scheme of things he was overused completely and the results speak for themselves. Lots in the 1st and 4th, minimal in the second and more in the 3rd quarter. That's significant time in 3/4 quarters which to me echo's the concerns of many here.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Royle9

Why do you keep reiterating the logs/quarter aspect. You already said that (dozens of times now) and I posted the below referencing your "quarterly" assessment and all it does is further justify the fact that Brouwer was given far too much time on the PP, it couldn't be more clear.

What 75% of us are saying is NOT false at all, its fact and your logs that you've researched and posted further prove that.

No, they prove the opposite, but you refuse to acknowledge what the actual game logs show, or address the alternatives (Harvey? Really?) that a real coach would have to consider.

I said he shouldn't have had top unit minutes off the bat. What I was addressing was the argument that GG "refused" to change that and stuck with him throughout. He did change it up. He took him right off to PP. Then, at times he was forced to use him on the second unit (like maybe 30 seconds per PP) because, yes, he was a better choice than Lazar (who hadn't scored at all) or Stajan (who hadn't scored at all) or Hathaway (who you could at least make an argument for but, as time went on, was reverting to his old self).

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

No, they prove the opposite, but you refuse to acknowledge what the actual game logs show, or address the alternatives (Harvey? Really?) that a real coach would have to consider.

I said he shouldn't have had top unit minutes off the bat. What I was addressing was the argument that GG "refused" to change that and stuck with him throughout. He did change it up. He took him right off to PP. Then, at times he was forced to use him on the second unit (like maybe 30 seconds per PP) because, yes, he was a better choice than Lazar (who hadn't scored at all) or Stajan (who hadn't scored at all) or Hathaway (who you could at least make an argument for but, as time went on, was reverting to his old self).

you're contradicting your own posts now...
I'm not refusing to acknowledge anything, I'm simply quoting your posts word for word and what you've said is that Brouwer only had limited time in 1/4 of the season. This was from YOUR game log research not mine, I'm not claiming to have reviewed dobber myself nor do I need to in order to justify why I think GG is a terrible coach. The Harvey reference was to another poster who posted his name as to further justify that we could have tried literally anything instead of Brouwer, clearly you missed that I'm sorry.

Was he really a better choice than Lazar, Stajan or Hathaway though in hindsight? Especially 3/4 through the season when he STILL WASN'T DOING ANYTHING? We wont know if they could have been better because we never tried. Did they have success 5v5? No, but Brouwer didn't either and yet he was continually awarded PP time again and again. There's literally no reason NOT to try either of those 3 when your PP goes 1/49 in the last 2 months or w/e it was.

That's where the disconnect is, christ I would have thrown out a defenseman to stand in front of the net just to "try" it at that point if we're being completely honest.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by redforever

I will give my perspective. I am one of the oldest on this site if not the oldest. I started watching hockey with my Dad when it was still the Big 6 League. We were rabid Leafs fans and we could not wait for Hockey Night in Canada on Saturday nights. We owned the TV on Saturday nights.

Never had a TV while attending university so got out of hockey a bit then. Moved to Calgary and got right back into it when the Flames came to town. Never got season tickets right away but had them by the time the Flames had their first Stanley Cup appearance. We shared the season with friends. My friends always called me the #1 Flames Fan...loved this team.

We went to 1/4 season ticket holders around 2000. We lived in the country then and there were a lot of 7 pm starts...just too hard to rush home and get back into town again.

Then my husband died, I moved into Calgary, and kept that 1/4 season ticket because I had a grandson then and wanted to introduce him to hockey when he was old enough. I took him to his first games when Hartley took the Flames to the playoffs. What a GREAT year to introduce a young boy to hockey...such exciting hockey.

I gave up my last holding last year. I have watched a lot of hockey...and I mean a LOT of hockey. GG's hockey has been the absolute worst and by far. I never thought I would say that after watching Young Guns hockey and Brent Sutter hockey.

GG's hockey has killed my hockey spirit. My grandson wanted to attend a few games this year so I bought some tickets...very easy to get but then even he stopped asking to go to anymore games. The Flames lost every game we attended and not one game held any excitement except the game against the Leafs where the Flames were down 6-1 and had a sudden flurry and lost by 7-5.

I have the TV on for games but rarely watch. IF I hear the horn that we have scored, I might go and watch the replay. This is bad hockey, the wrost hockey ever. I doubt I will even have my TV on in the background next year if there is more GG hockey.

This is the post that the Flames management needs to see.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Royle9

you're contradicting your own posts now...
I'm not refusing to acknowledge anything, I'm simply quoting your posts word for word and what you've said is that Brouwer only had limited time in 1/4 of the season.He did This was from YOUR game log research not mine, I'm not claiming to have reviewed dobber myself nor do I need to in order to justify why I think GG is a terrible coach. The Harvey reference was to another poster who posted his name as to further justify that we could have tried literally anything instead of Brouwer, clearly you missed that I'm sorry.They did try other people - when brouwer was out, with no better results (worse, in fact)

Was he really a better choice than Lazar, Stajan or Hathaway though in hindsight? given that they never practiced power play, yesEspecially 3/4 through the season when he STILL WASN'T DOING ANYTHING? He wasn't on the power play much at that pointWe wont know if they could have been better because we never tried. Did they have success 5v5? No, but Brouwer didn't either and yet he was continually awarded PP time again and again. Brouwer was outscoring all of those guys 5 on 5There's literally no reason NOT to try either of those 3 when your PP goes 1/49 in the last 2 months or w/e it was. Well there are a bunch of reasons but you don't really want to hear them

That's where the disconnect is, christ I would have thrown out a defenseman to stand in front of the net just to "try" it at that point if we're being completely honest.I guess that's why you are not an NHL coach

All in all, you are missing the whole point of those stats. It's not that he was a great powerplay guy. It's that the narrative that GG stuck with him (on the top unit yet) is just plain incorrect. And it's why you can't look at year totals - you have to look at what happened over the year.

By a lot of posters' rationale, BTW, Bennett shouldn't have seen the powerplay either.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

And I’m one of them. Just not arrogant enough to think that threats from me personally reflect the opinion of all Flames fans.

What are you talking about? STHs are literally "Tier 1" fans - if management is going to listen to anyone, it should be to them.