Francis: Treliving filled with disappointment, anger after team's collapse

[Roof-Daddy]

Sven wanted out, said he was going to Europe if he wasn't traded. Treliving's hands were tied there.

Byron hurts though, as I don't think the intention was to lose him on waivers. IIRC that idiot Kassian had his DUI/broken foot kerfuffle right when the Flames tried to sneak Byron through, and that opened up a spot for Montreal to snag Byron. Even still, he should never have bee sent down anyways with a plug like Bollig still on the roster at the time. Man that pisses me off just thinking about it! Our team desperately needs faster, more tenacious depth scorers in the bottom six forward group and we gave one away for free with guys like Bollig, Raymond and Bouma holding down roster spots! Two future buy outs and another who ended his career in the AHL anyways!

[Fire]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Tre has no one to blame but himself.

Should have fired the entire coaching staff by Christmas and its very possible Flames season is not over.

Replaced with who actually? None of the good coaching candidates are available until the off-season. Worse thing they could do is sign a bunch of out-of-work coaches at Christmas to 3-year deals only to see the team continue to struggle.

[Stay Golden]

Bradley Fire your boy Gulutzan and then resign. Before you Trade away our 2019 First round pick in yet another trade that results in no Flames playoffs.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Sven wanted out, said he was going to Europe if he wasn't traded. Treliving's hands were tied there.

Byron hurts though, as I don't think the intention was to lose him on waivers. IIRC that idiot Kassian had his DUI/broken foot kerfuffle right when the Flames tried to sneak Byron through, and that opened up a spot for Montreal to snag Byron. Even still, he should never have bee sent down anyways with a plug like Bollig still on the roster at the time. Man that pisses me off just thinking about it! Our team desperately needs faster, more tenacious depth scorers in the bottom six forward group and we gave one away for free with guys like Bollig, Raymond and Bouma holding down roster spots! Two future buy outs and another who ended his career in the AHL anyways!

Byron was also a victim of the three headed goalie monster. Ortio took an extra spot so a skater needed to go on waivers. Overall not well handled by the GM.

[Moneyhands23]

Originally Posted by Locke

Its a process.

The process better be quick or the best coaches will be gone.

I wonder if this was a problem after Hartley was let go. Took to long to act and had to settle with GG

[monkeyman]

Part of the reason Sven wanted out was because of the way he was treated by management. Management created that whole mess and then had to act to minimize the damage. Say what you want about Sven, maybe he needed to be coddled, but that's managements job to recognize the make up of the player and work with it, not against it, destroying his confidence and resolve along the way.
Of course thinking about it now, I wonder how much Hartley played in that. hmmm.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Fire

Replaced with who actually? None of the good coaching candidates are available until the off-season. Worse thing they could do is sign a bunch of out-of-work coaches at Christmas to 3-year deals only to see the team continue to struggle.

Not that I advocated a mid season change but as for no one available....

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Sven wanted out, said he was going to Europe if he wasn't traded. Treliving's hands were tied there.

Every player reacts differently to criticism but who could blame him after Burke's comments

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Every player reacts differently to criticism but who could blame him after Burke's comments

What did he say again?

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Your only argument against advanced stats is you don’t understand them and you don’t trust them.

No, my argument is that the, commonly known and advanced stats I'm talking about
(shot-based metrics) are statistically proven to be of dubious value, and I strongly suspect they have a negative impact on decision-making and evaluations. The latter part is not something I need to back up in any way, although I think I've adequately explained why I think that is.

I'm also strongly against the idea that you can make an informed counterargument against primary stats using secondary stats on the question of how well the team is playing in general, and I find it relevant because using secondary stats to make that specific argument have been common. ("Flames are about to turn a corner.")

Your argument seems to be that there exists non-shot-based advanced stats that are widely used and considered significant, which in your mind somehow invalidates what I'm saying, although I don't understand why you think it would.

Since you think you simply know better, would you care to show what stats exactly are you talking about, and why do you assume all teams are using those stats.

BTW, I do know PDO also exists, and I have no problem with it although I don't think there's that much you can do with it really. But it's really just two traditional stats combined, and they do give statistically relevant info on how the team is doing. Nor sure it's helpful beyond that simple question though

And no, PDO is not luck. It's in the same article I linked.

[DeluxeMoustache]

^ I spoke with someone from the Flames who knows well what stats they look at.

They are fully aware of the limitations of models like Corsi and do look at situational data around shots to put them in context beyond simply counting shots (& attempts), and location.

[Itse]

Double post.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

^ I spoke with someone from the Flames who knows well what stats they look at.

They are fully aware of the limitations of models like Corsi and do look at situational data around shots to put them in context beyond simply counting shots (& attempts), and location.

maybe you can ask him why they continued to put Brouwer on the PP when it was clearly struggling?

that was something i could never understand...clearly, there are bright people in that room, that understand what the advanced stats say, but they seemed to ignore them in a few situations.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

^ I spoke with someone from the Flames who knows well what stats they look at.

They are fully aware of the limitations of models like Corsi and do look at situational data around shots to put them in context beyond simply counting shots (& attempts), and location.

Well that's fine. Doesnt really have much to do with my argument against shot-based metrics and without information it's impossible to say anything useful about them. Although since Flames are a particularly bad team when it comes to getting shots to go in, this anecdotal data point does not make the stats Flames are using look useful.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

maybe you can ask him why they continued to put Brouwer on the PP when it was clearly struggling?

that was something i could never understand...clearly, there are bright people in that room, that understand what the advanced stats say, but they seemed to ignore them in a few situations.

They took Brouwer off until injuries put him back on

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by the2bears

What did he say again?

Burke -"I'm not sure what we have in him, “flashes of brilliance”, sporadic focus on offence but nowhere near enough on the defensive game, “big holes” and “a lack of commitment”.

Burke's comments weren't really off base but considering Sven had about 25 games in the NHL it probably would have been better served in private.

[Red]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

They took Brouwer off until injuries put him back on

Injuries did not put him in. Gulutzan and Cameron did. We have other forwards on the team and some of them are capable of scoring more than 0 PP goals in the whole season.

And they didn't take him off, they had him playing on the second unit.

Incidentally, the team scored 1 PP goal in the last quarter season when injuries hit.

Indefensible, but I am sure you will try.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Itse

Well that's fine. Doesnt really have much to do with my argument against shot-based metrics and without information it's impossible to say anything useful about them. Although since Flames are a particularly bad team when it comes to getting shots to go in, this anecdotal data point does not make the stats Flames are using look useful.

I’m certainly not making a claim that the Flames have made good use of any particular stats on the ice. That is obvious. Also, fyi, the conversation I had on this topic was in the second half of last season.

My only point was that people who actually do this for a living (meaning on or on behalf of NHL teams) aren’t relying entirely on simple counting stats.

Many people on CP and the Fan keep talking about them but the people who do are far behind. Take a guy like steinberg - he is paid to talk for hours so he will do his best to bring whatever data is available to the table. He works hard, and relies on public domain info. Good on him, but his analysis is often skewed.

I am pretty sure a guy like Chris Snow isn’t plunking down a folder on the desk of Gulutzan and Treliving showing which teams have out scored their opponents and how they rank in the standings.

As for what it has to do with your argument, I am not sure what you are looking for.

We both agree that simple counting stats like Corsi fall short.

You seem to think that goal differential is a better predictor I believe.
I, like many, believe that goals for and against are more of an outcome based statistic.

Maybe another way to say it is this. The use of goal differential as a stat as predictor of team success is about as useful as a coach telling his team that their strategy is to outscore the other team.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Burke -"I'm not sure what we have in him, “flashes of brilliance”, sporadic focus on offence but nowhere near enough on the defensive game, “big holes” and “a lack of commitment”.



Burke's comments weren't really off base but considering Sven had about 25 games in the NHL it probably would have been better served in private.

Damn Sven was such a dynamic player when he first came up. Not saying the Flames ruined him but hopes were high for a while.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Red

Injuries did not put him in. Gulutzan and Cameron did. We have other forwards on the team and some of them are capable of scoring more than 0 PP goals in the whole season.

And they didn't take him off, they had him playing on the second unit.

Incidentally, the team scored 1 PP goal in the last quarter season when injuries hit.

Indefensible, but I am sure you will try.

Nope, you are just wrong, they often didn't even have him on unit 2 when they took him off - they left unit 2 intact until injuries hit. And when they took Brouwer off starting in the second quarter, guess how their PP was? Just as terrible as when he was on. I know there's a desire for a narrative, but Brouwer wasn't the PP issue. He had less ATOI on the power play than, say, Sam Bennett, but with more points.

He's not an ideal guy for the PP, which is why he went from being on a quarter of the time in the first quarter, to a 10th of the time, in the second quarter. Who would you put on instead, when the injuries hit?