Francis: Treliving filled with disappointment, anger after team's collapse

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Firebot

The Devils just made the playoffs with Hall at 93 points and the next guy 42 points behind him. The Devils have 4 guys with 40+ points, the Flames have 6. The Devils were 11th in the league in PP.

Yes let's blame the problems on skills.

New Jersey also has about 30+ goals on us.

Have you even seen them play? They’re built for the new NHL unlike the Flames. They’re one of the fastest teams in the league and they have depth scoring between all 4 lines while our bottom 6 could be right up there with some of the worst teams in the NHL.

There’s a reason we’ve only been out of the 1st round 2 times over the last 29 years. Management consistently cannot keep up with the times and are building teams that are outdated. But yes, let’s continue to look for more grit and toughness and character because it’s been so successful for this franchise the last 3 decades.

[DeluxeMoustache]

^ I didn’t see that guy saying to get grittier, more than he implied top player skill levels were at least at NJ level. And you pretty much just said the bottom lines had more skill

You guys probably agree on that, but somehow find yourselves in an argumentative stance

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

^ I didn’t see that guy saying to get grittier, more than he implied top player skill levels were at least at NJ level. And you pretty much just said the bottom lines had more skill

You guys probably agree on that, but somehow find yourselves in an argumentative stance

No, we’re in disagreement because we have a fundamental difference in why this team was a failure this season. Based on his remark, he doesn’t think this team lacks talent and skill whereas I completely think the opposite.

If the bottom 6 resembled anything that New Jersey had this season, we’d be in the playoffs no question. The bottom 6 was sinking this team all season and the 1st line and Mike Smith kept this team afloat, but when the goaltending started to slip, the cracks in this team really showed. This franchise will continue to be mired in mediocrity until everyone finally starts to realize the actual problems with this organization.

[Chingas]

Imo the team needs more testicular fortitude not more so called "toughness" derived from size.

[Chingas]

I also think that it's funny that a lot of us have arrived at the same conclusions but we aren't happy with agreeing on something so we choose to fight over how the conclusion was derived, lol.

[timbit]

Bottom line.
The Flames are 28 th in GF with 211
Only Montreal Arizona and Buffalo have scored fewer goals.

That’s a skill issue. Whether lack of ability to finish or straight lack of talent...it is the Flames biggest issue.

To fully understand the problem , Gaudreau , Monahan and Tkachuk , their most talented offensive players all had career years.



“Testicular fortitude” is way down the list of Flame problems.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by stone hands

this season is so bad it made people forget the 2015-16 season existed it seems with all this revisionist hartley history

Harltey had a pretty drab team to coach though. It had some young talent, but they were just cutting their teeth. The team in 15-16 finished right where it belonged. It just seemed more disappointing than it should have given the over-achievement the year before. They simply regressed back to the norm.

Gulutzan has had more to work with. Either that, or maybe Gulutzan is just as bad off and an equal or better coach to Hartley. But then you have to look at Treliving. Take your pick.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Harltey had a pretty drab team to coach though. It had some young talent, but they were just cutting their teeth. The team in 15-16 finished right where it belonged. It just seemed more disappointing than it should have given the over-achievement the year before. They simply regressed back to the norm.

Gulutzan has had more to work with. Either that, or maybe Gulutzan is just as bad off and an equal or better coach to Hartley. But then you have to look at Treliving. Take your pick.

No, above and far beyond any regression to the norm, Hartley’s team finished below where it should have been.

Hiller played a terrible, career ending season with historically bad stats.
Johnny had no camp
Brodie was out to start the year
Gio recovering from major injury
Hamilton learning new system looked disastrous for 20 games out of the gate
GM put coach in a bind with 3 headed goalie monster
When Ramo emerged as the only decent G option he got his knee blown out and his career pretty much ended too

Why do people find it so hard to remember what happened?

Only two bloody seasons have passed since then

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by timbit

Bottom line.
The Flames are 28 th in GF with 211
Only Montreal Arizona and Buffalo have scored fewer goals.

That’s a skill issue. Whether lack of ability to finish or straight lack of talent...it is the Flames biggest issue.

To fully understand the problem , Gaudreau , Monahan and Tkachuk , their most talented offensive players all had career years.



“Testicular fortitude” is way down the list of Flame problems.

Hamilton also has a career high for goals too.
The Flames have lacked talent up front for 25 years now.

[browna]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

I'm going to take issue with that one.

He has the same amount of assists as last year but 8 fewer goals.

I just don't think Backlund was the problem, because when I watched the team play, Backlund was making good plays at both ends of the ice. I'd be careful to not lump him in with the rest of the underperforming players. Shots just didn't go in, possibly due to the GG system that was not creative enough offensively.

Well, a second line really needs to be able to play offence, not just match against a top line on the defensive side. That’s the job of a solid third line, certainly at home. When your 2nd line center drops goal production by around 35% year over year, that’s not good for a goal starved team.

And when I meant falling off a cliff I meant more these last 2+ calendar months. Him and Frolik, when the games start to really matter, have 8 goals in 64 games as 2/3 of the second offensive line.

As much as the Flames need a more consistent rw on the top line, in general they more urgently need to have a legit secondary scoring threat following JG and the top line, so other teams can’t just focus their top defensive guys on one line/2 guys.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

No, above and far beyond any regression to the norm, Hartley’s team finished below where it should have been.

Hiller played a terrible, career ending season with historically bad stats.
Johnny had no camp
Brodie was out to start the year
Gio recovering from major injury
Hamilton learning new system looked disastrous for 20 games out of the gate
GM put coach in a bind with 3 headed goalie monster
When Ramo emerged as the only decent G option he got his knee blown out and his career pretty much ended too

Why do people find it so hard to remember what happened?

Only two bloody seasons have passed since then

Didn’t Johnny miss camp the season after?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Firing Hartley at least in part because the young players thought he was too mean did nothing but re-instill the "country club" atmosphere that has plagued thing franchise for most of the last 25 years. The inmates run the asylum here now and nothing short of hard coach can change that.

The rumors were that the young guys liked Hartley, but the veterans did not. Of course, you have to take rumors with a grain of salt, but based on the positive things the young guys said about Hartley, the fact that Gaudreau attended Hartley's hockey camp shortly after the firing, and Sarich's negative comments about Hartley a few months ago, it seems reasonable to believe.

With Gulutzan, it's the opposite. The veterans like him (I'd argue it's because he doesn't hold them accountable), but the young guys are frustrated by him and his system. Hopefully Brad recognizes that Gulutzan is a big part of the problem, because I suspect that keeping him while trading young members of the core would be a huge mistake.

[Galakanokis]

Originally Posted by timbit

Bottom line.
The Flames are 28 th in GF with 211
Only Montreal Arizona and Buffalo have scored fewer goals.

That’s a skill issue. Whether lack of ability to finish or straight lack of talent...it is the Flames biggest issue.

To fully understand the problem , Gaudreau , Monahan and Tkachuk , their most talented offensive players all had career years.



“Testicular fortitude” is way down the list of Flame problems.

To a degree I agree. I think players put up career numbers because that are actually very good hockey players and did so despite the system. They were able to create while being stifled. The rest just didn't have that level of skill and focused on possession. I believe most of those top players can add 10 to 15 more points to their totals this year under the right coach.

But yes, bottom end skill needs to be upgraded. It always does it is a never ending quest.

[RoughRiderRowdy]

You guys, if backlund is our 2nd line centerman going forward we will never be a contender. On a cup contender he is a reliable 2 way 3rd line center that can chip in. We need offensive skill so incredibly bad

[Freeway]

The issue with Hartley is that he was a motivator, but he was atrocious at strategy or insight. His philosophy was "just work harder."

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by RoughRiderRowdy

You guys, if backlund is our 2nd line centerman going forward we will never be a contender.

You sure love speaking in baseless absolutes, don't you?

[RoughRiderRowdy]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

You sure love speaking in baseless absolutes, don't you?

Tell me im wrong. Please.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by RoughRiderRowdy

Tell me im wrong. Please.

Okay. You're wrong.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by timbit

Bottom line.
The Flames are 28 th in GF with 211
Only Montreal Arizona and Buffalo have scored fewer goals.

That’s a skill issue. Whether lack of ability to finish or straight lack of talent...it is the Flames biggest issue.

To fully understand the problem , Gaudreau , Monahan and Tkachuk , their most talented offensive players all had career years.



“Testicular fortitude” is way down the list of Flame problems.

Surprised there aren’t hundreds of people thanking this post. This team still has a talent gap IMO. Mostly up front but the so called offensive defensemen after Gio and Hamilton don’t score at all.

A different coach might help for sure. But it runs deeper than that.

That’s why I roll my eyes at suggestion of trading Gaudreau. I can’t imagine a return that would improve the team unless it’s another tear down.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Freeway

The issue with Hartley is that he was a motivator, but he was atrocious at strategy or insight. His philosophy was "just work harder."

Are you sure about that? I seem to recall Hartley making changes in the lineups, line matching much more frequently, and he seemed to have a better read on the pulse of the team.

Yes, he did expect 'work harder' - he demanded everyone keep working harder all the time, but lost in all of this was the fact that he was an incredible on-ice teacher. His practices ran long not just because he made his players work, but because he would frequently take players aside and teach them. Countless play-by-play and color commentators around the league were very impressed with how he actually coached and how much he seemed to actually be teaching in practices.

Yes, I wouldn't say he is at Darryl Sutter's level of being a tactician, but he was good at it. Calling him just a motivator is something I really can't agree with. Even his defensive side of the system - though not providing great CORSI numbers - seemed better as well. Heck, he gave up less shots against while generating more goals.

People say that Gulutzan is a really great hockey mind - are people sure about that? I wouldn't call Dallas Eakins a great hockey mind, and he was 'playing for CORSI' for a stretch (likely grasping at straws there).

The Flames under Gulutzan are slower, less offensively capable, and (here's the real kicker) are at BEST the same defensively. Hartley (while running 12 different defencemen in a season, and having a much lower talent level overall) allowed LESS shots on goal than Gulutzan's system has been this year.

The last (and worst year) of Hartley's tenure had these numbers:

29.0 shots against/game
229 Total goals for

Gulutzan's Flames this year have:
31.2 shots against/game
209 total goals for

Remember, these numbers got Hartley fired. These raw numbers are still better than Gulutzan's, on a worse team, with worse goaltending, and at a time when the Pacific was arguably a tougher division. Hartley had injuries and some horrible goaltending issues to deal with.

People like to continue saying that Hartley had no defensive system, or that he relied on 'river hockey'. He had a sound defensive system for the team at the time, but his best year found him to have average goaltending. CORSI wasn't good - but then again, can one expect to have really good CORSI when a team is young and lacking in overall talent?

Gulutzan's defensive system seems to be a 'push' at best, and when considering the quality of the team overall, especially the defencemen, it seems like an actual step backwards.

Hartley wasn't a bad coach. He was smart. He implemented a system that seemed to fit the team. He knew (until the last season) how to manage his goalies. He line-matched fairly well (Hitchcock would own him it seems, however). He was a good, all-around coach. It was his personality that got him canned. And if it wasn't, then having slightly worse results on a much improved team leads me to believe that Treliving is going to fire Gulutzan imminently, and that he is not wavering in the slightest.

And yes, Hartley was a damn good motivator, and he did get his team to 'work harder', but he was so much more than that. Not an elite coach, but incredibly underrated here.