Vegan protestors angry that restuarant carved meat in front of them

[Locke]

Originally Posted by nik-

I eagerly anticipate the days we have synthetic meat I can grow on a curtain rod in my home.

I'll ask people if they want to come over to my place and see my meat rod.

I dont think they're going to fall for that again.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Suzles

You aren't going to be able to support a family on minimum pay as a restaurant worker - and their English is, on occasion, not up to conversational standards.

Ok, so what other jobs are there for them that doesn't involve restaurant work, since you seem to be deeply involved in the lives of TFWs?

At its root, however, I hope you do see the absurdity of your argument You are promoting the idea of removing jobs from the economy and denying people access to improve their lives as a benefit of going vegan.

That is just some ass-backwards priorities right there, imnsho.

[Suzles]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Ok, so what other jobs are there for them that doesn't involve restaurant work, since you seem to be deeply involved in the lives of TFWs?

At its root, however, I hope you do see the absurdity of your argument You are promoting the idea of removing jobs from the economy and denying people access to improve their lives as a benefit of going vegan.

That is just some ass-backwards priorities right there, imnsho.

I suppose my dream world la-la land would like these workers to be able to farm produce of the non-live animal type. Green agriculture - is that a term yet? As a previous TFW - now a citizen - I do have an active interest in helping people settle in their country of choice.

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[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

Ah yes. The expert.

You're right, I retract the prior statement, particularly the wording that made it seem like an absolute. Let me rephrase. Working in a slaughterhouse does not give you PTSD, any more than becoming a Police officer gives you PTSD. It might, depending on your personal experience and who you are psychologically.

In any case, that determination is to be made by a medical doctor, and should not be used as a talking point in an ideological debate on an unrelated topic, for the same reason that it's pretty slimy to express concerns about mental illness when your actual agenda is to prevent gun control reforms.

I hope that clarifies my position here, which I really don't think is particularly controversial.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yeah I don't think that's going to happen.

Maybe not, but it’s worth considering not taking over areas that are prime locations for growing fruit and vegetables to raise cattle. That seems like an irresponsible use of that land.

[Flamenspiel]

Originally Posted by Suzles

I suppose my dream world la-la land would like these workers to be able to farm produce of the non-live animal type. Green agriculture - is that a term yet? As a previous TFW - now a citizen - I do have an active interest in helping people settle in their country of choice.

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Do you have any idea how many chemicals are sprayed on fruits and vegetables? Next time you are at Planet organic, ask them about certification procedures for the Mexican fruit they have.

[transplant99]

This thread is going as expected.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

You're right, I retract the prior statement, particularly the wording that made it seem like an absolute. Let me rephrase. Working in a slaughterhouse does not give you PTSD, any more than becoming a Police officer gives you PTSD. It might, depending on your personal experience and who you are psychologically.

True. But working in a slaughterhouse results in more occurrences of PTSD than does working in a flower store. And I think that might be the point of that weird argument. All things being equal, killing animals all day is going to be more traumatizing than killing flowers...for profit...done by evil florists.

[Suzles]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

True. But working in a slaughterhouse results in more occurrences of PTSD than does working in a flower store. And I think that might be the point of that weird argument. All things being equal, killing animals all day is going to be more traumatizing than killing flowers...for profit...done by evil florists.

Most appropriate - I work in a garden centre

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[JD]

Originally Posted by transplant99

This thread is going as expected.

Oh, I don't know... the PTSD argument is kind of an unexpected twist.

[CliffFletcher]

We laugh, but I suspect most of us posting in this thread will live to see a day when veganism is the norm in Canada. Our grandchildren will regard pictures of us eating BBQ with the same distaste we regard people attending dog fights.

[Resolute 14]

I realize you get off on being a contrarian, Cliff, but humanity is not going to just stop being an omnivore any time soon.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

We laugh, but I suspect most of us posting in this thread will live to see a day when veganism is the norm in Canada. Our grandchildren will regard pictures of us eating BBQ with the same distaste we regard people attending dog fights.

2.3% of Canadians are vegans.

7.1% of Canadians are vegetarians.

Converting over 30 Million people from food they like, want (and is easily supplied) over the course of say 50 years?

Not happening and not even close to happening. And no, no one will ever consider eating a chicken leg or some bacon is anything close to the blood lust that a dog fight is.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I realize you get off on being a contrarian, Cliff, but humanity is not going to just stop being an omnivore any time soon.

No, I agree... The more likely avenue is that as soon as we have practically available alternative sources of meat, that is, as soon as cultured meat is more or less indistinguishable from regular meat and no more expensive, a significant majority of people in developed countries will suddenly and conveniently no longer be able to justify to ourselves the eating of animals.

I say "suddenly" but that's likely to be a process that occurs over the course of a decade, and that decade is likely several decades away. And eating "real" meat will still be a thing, but sort of a decadent and morally dubious thing, like buying a fur coat rather than attending a dog fight.

That'd be my prognostication anyway.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I realize you get off on being a contrarian, Cliff, but humanity is not going to just stop being an omnivore any time soon.

50 years ago it was perfectly normal for people to kick or beat their dogs. It didn't raise an eyebrow. Try that in public today.

Think of how much our social norms have changed since your grandparents were 30 years old. How astonished those 30 year olds would be if you plucked them from their time and dropped them in ours. How morally repulsed the average 30 year old today would be at what they would see on a day-to-day basis if they switched places.

Our social norms are going to change just as dramatically in the coming decades, and in surprising ways. Make no mistake, your grandchildren are going to regard some behaviors you consider perfectly normal with disgust. Given that one of the persistent themes in the last century has been the expansion of our circle of empathy, and how animals now fall within that circle, it's not crazy talk to imagine animal rights being taken far more seriously in the future. To imagine a generation gap over the issue like generation gap over gay marriage or spanking.

Doesn't mean people will stop eating meat-like substances. I suspect once vat-grown ersatz meat becomes commercially viable, the notion of raising intelligent mammals in order to kill and eat their carcasses will be regarded as monstrous and barbaric.

[Swift]

While this thread is somewhat all over the place, allow me to make a film recommendation. On Body and Soul is a recently Oscar nominated Hungarian film about two shy slaughterhouse workers who develop an unusual romance. The film isn't about the ethics of killing animals for consumption but it is does show a scene without judgment of a cow being killed and then cut up into slabs (it cuts away for a second at the moment of death) It's disturbing to say the least, but is maybe worth watching just that scene. It's on Netflix. I think we're so far removed from it that we don't give a second thought to what is actually involved in getting dinner on our plate. I just had lamb for dinner the other day but if you showed me a lamb being slaughtered I'd likely be horrified. Sure, the vegan activism is annoying but I find the over the top blood thirsty responses just as cringe worthy.

Another more difficult to find film is Franju's Blood of the Beasts, a 20 min unflinching documentary from the 50s. Might be on YouTube.

I had to give up red meat for health reasons a few years ago, and so only eat it very rarely. Increasingly, I've thought about becoming vegetarian but to my shame my willpower hasn't been great.

[GGG]

I think the cost of meet as the world develops combined with a substitute will be what drives it rather than ethical considerations. People may use ethical arguments to try to do it but really those arguments only exist becuase of economics. Once real meat becomes only for the rich then like fur and animal skins will become verboten.

As always though economics and substitutions will drive behaviour with a human narrative layered over too to make our selves feel better

I'd also say anyone who has never hunted or fished should not be eating their own meet. If you are not comfortable being the agent of death in getting food to your plate then as a meat eater you are hypocritical. I'm not saying you have to work in a slaughter house but you should see an animal dying for your sustenance.

[Canehdianman]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

We laugh, but I suspect most of us posting in this thread will live to see a day when veganism is the norm in Canada. Our grandchildren will regard pictures of us eating BBQ with the same distaste we regard people attending dog fights.

I think it is far more likely that we will switch to lab grown meat.

I, for one, intend to eat meat forever. But if I can buy lab grown, perfectly marbled steak for a little bit more $, I will absolutely stop consuming the flesh of animals.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by transplant99

2.3% of Canadians are vegans.

7.1% of Canadians are vegetarians.

Converting over 30 Million people from food they like, want (and is easily supplied) over the course of say 50 years?

Not happening and not even close to happening. And no, no one will ever consider eating a chicken leg or some bacon is anything close to the blood lust that a dog fight is.

I don't know for sure but I will bet you that a higher % of under 18 people are vegetarian now. Evey kid I know is vegetarian. And I bet that indicates we probably are heading away from eating animals faster than anyone thinks.

[Mccree]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

I don't know for sure but I will bet you that a higher % of under 18 people are vegetarian now. Evey kid I know is vegetarian. And I bet that indicates we probably are heading away from eating animals faster than anyone thinks.

It might be higher but every kid I know loves a good burger, pepperoni pizza and chicken wings.