Treliving needs to start feeling the heat

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Sutter changed what he wanted in drafted players with the Backlund draft but he still preferred the bigger players. And it shows that the GM has the call in what traits they want drafted.

I do give Sutter credit for this he saw the league was changing after 05 lockout and changed.

But every GM sets these. That's why they have the amateur scouting meetings in December and go over what they are looking for.

I realize people hate Feaster but he did not just get out of the way and let Button draft Gaudreau. Feaster stated the parameters and scouts go looking for those players.

It's also why Treliving gets credit for drafting players like Mangiapane and Phillips while Burke is his boss. The GM decides.

The parameters that Feaster laid out was: "get the best player you can regardless of size".

Under Sutter, the philosophy did evolve - IQ, Skill, Character, Skating ability - those are things that Sutter over the years identified. He also grew the scouting staff from basically one full time scout and 2 part time scouts when he took over to something resembling an actual pro scouting team. That is why I don't begrudge him trading away picks (especially 2nds) for established players - take whatever odds those picks have to make the NHL on average, and drastically lower them for the Flames.

Feaster went with this philosophy, and explicitly told Button not to worry about size. So we now believe Feaster to have been "a modern NHL GM/visionary who saw the changes coming". Not quite.

Before Burke was hired, Feaster was on record numerous times that he needs this team to get bigger and harder to play against. He even went as far as to say that historically, the identity of the Calgary Flames was a team that you hated to play against because they would leave you black and blue, even when you won.

His direction was already changing as he saw that the organization was too small and too soft, even if the skill level was increasing. He - along with most NHL GMs I would say - feel that there should be a balance in the lineup.

Treliving has not deviated from that balance. He has on numerous occasions stated that this team needs to get bigger and harder to play against, but that the size needs to come with skating ability and with skill.

It is way easier for players like Gaudreau to enter the league, but looking back at past Stanley Cup Winners, I can't think of many undersized teams that won it. Most of them have had a nice balance - especially in the top 6.

I don't expect that to change. That is why this organization tries to draft the Hunter Smiths, the Keegan Kanzigs, the Zach Fischers, the Austin Carrols - they may not always work, but when they do they really help the team in different areas.

That is why there is no way in H-E double-hockey sticks that Ferland is going to be moving on, unless his contract demands are out of sync with Treliving's ceiling for him. Flames finally have a tough guy that can skate well, shoot the puck well, able to play with skilled players and who has a good IQ out there, and who is willing to drop the gloves and hits like a truck - I just can't see the Flames being so willing to part ways.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Well you have no idea whether O'Reilly would have gone on waivers, NHL never actually ruled on the difference between signing a RFA (O'Reilly) and a UFA (Nabokov).

He traded a guy coming off a 76 point season for a 2nd and a 4th, usually guys like that are worth at least a 1st.

He signed Mason Raymond who produced at about half the PPG rate as Roman Cervanka. Ditto for Brouwer.

He traded a 3rd round pick for Brandon Bollig

He traded a 35th overall pick for one season of Brian Elliott.

He traded a 2nd for Lazar.

He is good at trading Feaster assets (Russell and Hudler) for something as those players appreciated in value.


Over 4 years he has been unable to turn his assets (Raymond, Hillier, Brouwer,Lazar, Bollig) into tradeable assets in non-playoff years. Unfortunately BT is running out of Feaster acquired assets to trade.

Hudler went on to score 57 points over two seasons afterwards and is out of the league.

What do you think treliving could have got? You can be assured if a team was offering a first treliving would have taken it. The reason the Flames didn't get a first is because no one was willing to give them a first.

Who was going to give you anything for Raymond, Hillier, or Bollig? Those are bit parts and every team, aside from the very best has more than a couple.

Give it a rest man. If you're going to be critical, think about it a little bit.

Lastly, the Flames won the Bollig trade, unless you think Matt Iocapelli is a better hockey player than Bollig.

[Jason14h]

I think they have both contributed the same since the trade ! Zero

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

And no, Feaster isn't a model GM. Steve Yzerman is a model GM. Feaster was just a better management person than Tre and Burke.

Feaster will never get an NHL job again. Enough said.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Feaster will never get an NHL job again. Enough said.

He seems perfect for the Carolina job.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

And Treliving may have literally traded Rasmus Dahlin for 3 years of Travis Hamonic.

And ROR was an RFA after that, not a UFA.

And a 2013 Flames team with ROR and a healthy Kipper isn't drafting 6th overall.

And no, Feaster isn't a model GM. Steve Yzerman is a model GM. Feaster was just a better management person than Tre and Burke.

3% chance

And since Feaster didn't bother to check the rules ROR would have never been a Flame. Could have lost the first rounder for absolutely nothing if Colorado didn't match

I can even believe people defend Feaster...guy was terrible

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Who was going to give you anything for Raymond, Hillier, or Bollig? Those are bit parts and every team, aside from the very best has more than a couple.

Give it a rest man. If you're going to be critical, think about it a little bit.

Lastly, the Flames won the Bollig trade, unless you think Matt Iocapelli is a better hockey player than Bollig.

I agree with you that Raymond, Hillier, Bollig, Brouwer are bit parts and every team has more than a couple. But for Brad, they are Brad's best. Brad's ability to snag free talent on the UFA market is one of a kind.

Hiller - Brad gave him 4.5 million dollars a year, 6.5% of the cap. The average player makes about 4.1% of the cap, Brad gave Hiller 50% more than an average player, yet he was unable to unload him for anything of value.

Raymond - Brad gave him a 3 year deal at 4.6% of the value of the cap. Again above average money for Mason. Mason was such a bad signing that Brad actually bought out one of Brad's best, costing the Flames 1.05 million dollars last year and this year to do sweet jack. Another example of Brad's nose for talent.

Bollig - gave up a third round pick for this guy, a player you have given up on in his second year as a pro. But nonetheless, Bollig cost us about 775K on the cap last year to play in the minors, another great talent that Brad brought in.

Brouwer - Troy is only paid 6.2% of cap value, and he shows every single night that Brad identifies diamonds in the rough that no other GM finds. We can enjoy another one of Brad's best for 2 more years.

I look forward to who Brad can sign this offseason, this is his 5th offseason. Players I forgot to list

Frolik
Engelland
Grossman
Versteeg
Jagr

But with the big win tonight, the final two years of the BT era are now statistically better than the first two years. This is important because it is probably fair to say that the first two years he was dealing with garbage that Feaster had left behind, which was tough for a hockey guy like Brad as Jay did not know what he was doing.

Now we can definitively say the following

1) The first two years of the BT regime the Flames averaged 87 points a season. For the final two years, minimum (with 3 games left) the Flames averaged 88 points a season. It is objectively true that the final two years have been better than the first two years (although not as good as the first year under the BT regime)

2) The Goals for and against is worse in the final two years of the BT regime (negative 17) versus the first two years (negative 4). This is based on the first 79 games of this year, if we go on a serious run against the Coyotes, Knights and Jets to finish the year, points 2, 3 and 4 could change.

3) The Flames goals against is better in the final two years of the BT regime (2.87 GAA) than it was in the first two years (2.90 GAA). This is probably reflective of the resources that were expended to improve this area (Hamonic, Stone, Elliott, Smith). If the average holds for the final 3 games, the Flames should let in 5 fewer goals in the final two years of Brad's reign than they did in the first 2 years.

4) This defensive prowess has come at an offensive cost. In the first two years of the BT regime the Flames averaged 2.88 goals per game. In the final two years the Flames have averaged 2.70 goals per game. If the average holds for the final 3 games, the Flames should score 29 fewer goals in the final two years compared with the first two years of the BT regime.

But the bottom line is wins and losses, and right now the Flames have a guaranteed 1 win more in the final two years of the BT regime compared with first two years of the regime. Brad has had to mortgage some of the future to get to this point. In net draft pick terms, including the 2015 draft (first draft after a full year of Brad) through the 2019 draft the Flames have given up compared with their base allocation of 1 pick per round.

1st Rounders - Two
2nd Rounders - One
3rd Rounders - Three
4th Rounders - none
5th Rounders - One
6th Rounders - none
7th Rounders - none

So this improvement we have seen over the past two years has come at a bit of cost for the future. The Flames have traded net 2 1sts, 1 2nd, 3 3rds, and a 5th for their current prowess. It is possible that we do not see the success of the last two years in 3 or 4 years because of this as we have depleted our potential pipeline as part of the BT plan.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

I agree with you that Raymond, Hillier, Bollig, Brouwer are bit parts and every team has more than a couple. But for Brad, they are Brad's best. Brad's ability to snag free talent on the UFA market is one of a kind.

Hiller - Brad gave him 4.5 million dollars a year, 6.5% of the cap. The average player makes about 4.1% of the cap, Brad gave Hiller 50% more than an average player, yet he was unable to unload him for anything of value.

Raymond - Brad gave him a 3 year deal at 4.6% of the value of the cap. Again above average money for Mason. Mason was such a bad signing that Brad actually bought out one of Brad's best, costing the Flames 1.05 million dollars last year and this year to do sweet jack. Another example of Brad's nose for talent.

Bollig - gave up a third round pick for this guy, a player you have given up on in his second year as a pro. But nonetheless, Bollig cost us about 775K on the cap last year to play in the minors, another great talent that Brad brought in.

Brouwer - Troy is only paid 6.2% of cap value, and he shows every single night that Brad identifies diamonds in the rough that no other GM finds. We can enjoy another one of Brad's best for 2 more years.

I look forward to who Brad can sign this offseason, this is his 5th offseason. Players I forgot to list

Frolik
Engelland
Grossman
Versteeg
Jagr

But with the big win tonight, the final two years of the BT era are now statistically better than the first two years. This is important because it is probably fair to say that the first two years he was dealing with garbage that Feaster had left behind, which was tough for a hockey guy like Brad as Jay did not know what he was doing.

Now we can definitively say the following

1) The first two years of the BT regime the Flames averaged 87 points a season. For the final two years, minimum (with 3 games left) the Flames averaged 88 points a season. It is objectively true that the final two years have been better than the first two years (although not as good as the first year under the BT regime)

2) The Goals for and against is worse in the final two years of the BT regime (negative 17) versus the first two years (negative 4). This is based on the first 79 games of this year, if we go on a serious run against the Coyotes, Knights and Jets to finish the year, points 2, 3 and 4 could change.

3) The Flames goals against is better in the final two years of the BT regime (2.87 GAA) than it was in the first two years (2.90 GAA). This is probably reflective of the resources that were expended to improve this area (Hamonic, Stone, Elliott, Smith). If the average holds for the final 3 games, the Flames should let in 5 fewer goals in the final two years of Brad's reign than they did in the first 2 years.

4) This defensive prowess has come at an offensive cost. In the first two years of the BT regime the Flames averaged 2.88 goals per game. In the final two years the Flames have averaged 2.70 goals per game. If the average holds for the final 3 games, the Flames should score 29 fewer goals in the final two years compared with the first two years of the BT regime.

But the bottom line is wins and losses, and right now the Flames have a guaranteed 1 win more in the final two years of the BT regime compared with first two years of the regime. Brad has had to mortgage some of the future to get to this point. In net draft pick terms, including the 2015 draft (first draft after a full year of Brad) through the 2019 draft the Flames have given up compared with their base allocation of 1 pick per round.

1st Rounders - Two
2nd Rounders - One
3rd Rounders - Three
4th Rounders - none
5th Rounders - One
6th Rounders - none
7th Rounders - none

So this improvement we have seen over the past two years has come at a bit of cost for the future. The Flames have traded net 2 1sts, 1 2nd, 3 3rds, and a 5th for their current prowess. It is possible that we do not see the success of the last two years in 3 or 4 years because of this as we have depleted our potential pipeline as part of the BT plan.

Well you certainly have a lot of time on your hands.

This all seems rather nit-picky. Look at Hillier for example, what were the other options and at what cost? Was Raymond a bad bet? Yeah, probably but again, what were the options? Chase some other UFA that may or may not want to sign in Calgary (keep in mind the Flames were hardly an attractive destination at the time). Or perhaps bring up Kenny Agostino? If my memory is right, this was right around the time Bob Hartley was doing a wonderful job of developing Sven Beartchi.

You barely reference Frolik, Versteeg, engellend who all proved to be useful acquisitions. Sure Engellend was probably signed for too much, but he brought an element to this team that I think they miss and now need to address once again.

Your arguments don't seem rooted in reality, they merely look back and say 'what if'. It's basically living your life in a way where you say to yourself 'if I only asked out that girl then we'd be married and rich living in Mout Royal.'

Lastly, treliving has been pretty shrewd as far as pick acquisition & turning those picks into players who can play meaningful minutes and are under control. If there is a better strategy to deploy, I'm all ears.

[Angelino]

I contend both Feaster and Treliving are garbage. Whoever is in charge of hiring the GM should be fired so we don’t hire another disaster at the GM position.

Another thing that most likely needs to be improved is the scouting so that we can actually draft better and not end up with less losers like Poirier, Klimchuk, Hunter Smith, etc, etc in the higher rounds. Not sure if these were Tod Buttons stratagems.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Angelino

I contend both Feaster and Treliving are garbage. Whoever is in charge of hiring the GM should be fired so we don’t hire another disaster at the GM position.

Another thing that most likely needs to be improved is the scouting so that we can actually draft better and not end up with less losers like Poirier, Klimchuk, Hunter Smith, etc, etc in the higher rounds. Not sure if these were Tod Buttons stratagems.

His late round work is outstanding though - Gio, Brodie, Gaudreau

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GGG

His late round work is outstanding though - Gio, Brodie, Gaudreau

Gio was as late round as you can get.

[ricardodw]

Wrong thread

[Angelino]

Originally Posted by GGG

His late round work is outstanding though - Gio, Brodie, Gaudreau

Over how many years though? I think he has been head of scouting since 2001 which is 17 years. I’m glad they selected Gaudreau. I don’t think Giordano was actually drafted. Calgary needs to try to study how successful organizations handle scouting and the draft. Not enough talent is being generated from the drafts. Too many misses not enough hits. Button has had enough time to make his mark, perhaps it’s a good idea to revamp the scouting department or put more money into it to get better results?

The problems with this organization are many fold. One simple move like a new coach or a new gm won’t solve the issue of perennial irrelevancy. This is a diseased organization and the root cause has to be sought out and addressed. It would help if the organization had a better drafting record. That’s just the tip of the iceberg though unfortunately.

[Manhattanboy]

I said this in another thread: I wouldn’t be surprised if Tre kept the entire coaching staff intact next year.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

I said this in another thread: I wouldn’t be surprised if Tre kept the entire coaching staff intact next year.

That is going to be a tough sell to season ticket holders

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

I said this in another thread: I wouldn’t be surprised if Tre kept the entire coaching staff intact next year.

The owners are fans just like us. You think they could stomach another season of this hockey? Really tough to imagine this coaching staff comes back even if Treliving wants to keep them it may be an owner mandate based on season ticket sales alone.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

That is going to be a tough sell to season ticket holders

Very true. I just have this terrible feeling GG et al gets another year.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The owners are fans just like us. You think they could stomach another season of this hockey? Really tough to imagine this coaching staff comes back even if Treliving wants to keep them it may be an owner mandate.

Hoping you are right. Just awful entertainment particularly on home ice.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The owners are fans just like us. You think they could stomach another season of this hockey? Really tough to imagine this coaching staff comes back even if Treliving wants to keep them it may be an owner mandate based on season ticket sales alone.

No they are not. They are businessmen whose only vested interest in the Calgary Flames comes down to profits. Would they like to have a successful team that lines their own pockets with sellout crowds and playoff revenue? Of course. Do they care about investing their own money into in a winning team and doing whatever it takes to bring a Stanley Cup to the city of Calgary like you and I? Probably not.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Angelino

Over how many years though? I think he has been head of scouting since 2001 which is 17 years. I’m glad they selected Gaudreau. I don’t think Giordano was actually drafted. Calgary needs to try to study how successful organizations handle scouting and the draft. Not enough talent is being generated from the drafts. Too many misses not enough hits. Button has had enough time to make his mark, perhaps it’s a good idea to revamp the scouting department or put more money into it to get better results?

The problems with this organization are many fold. One simple move like a new coach or a new gm won’t solve the issue of perennial irrelevancy. This is a diseased organization and the root cause has to be sought out and addressed. It would help if the organization had a better drafting record. That’s just the tip of the iceberg though unfortunately.

LOL I laugh at comments like this. Are you saying the team needs a medical cure or exorcism? It's simply an organization that has made a lot of poor decisions over the years not unlike the 10-15 teams around the Flames that have also been mired in mediocrity for decades. Enough of the quick fixes and bad coaching hires. Simply hiring an NHL caliber head coach is a big step for this organization as they need to stop hiring guys that never head coach again in this league as Gulutzan will be five in a row which has to be approaching some sort of futility record as if the guys you hire aren't good enough to coach for other NHL teams it's a clear sign you are hiring the wrong guys.