Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[Jbo]

Originally Posted by stang

^^ Nashville has only been in the league for 20 years.

I know, I mentioned that. Not completely apples to apples. Just curious

[Barnet Flame]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Was that supposed to be funny or you seriously calling me the President of the Perennial Losers Club? I wouldn't say I've been a perennial loser as I've had a handful of good years over my lifetime.

That’s more than me.

And I still lose the presidency.

I’m more pathetic than Hilary.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by Jbo

For all the talk about how bad we are historically, would be curious how we stack up with other teams over the same 25 year period. (Let’s say making the second round) would we be that low or comparable to lots of other teams?

Just looked up Nashville. Made playoffs 10 times, 3 first round wins, and last season made the final.

Better then us, but not as big a gap as I thought

all you have to do is compare the flames to the oilers in that time period, which includes 10 years of the oilers being one of the worst (if not the worst) teams in the history of the NHL.

Oilers: made playoffs only 7 times, 2nd round in 4 of those seasons including one finals appearance.
Flames: made playoffs 11 times, 2nd round twice, including one finals appearance.

[Eric Vail]

Originally Posted by Jbo

For all the talk about how bad we are historically, would be curious how we stack up with other teams over the same 25 year period. (Let’s say making the second round) would we be that low or comparable to lots of other teams?

Just looked up Nashville. Made playoffs 10 times, 3 first round wins, and last season made the final.

Better then us, but not as big a gap as I thought

I don't really think you need to do a big study to see that the Flames are, at best, in the bottom third in the last 25 years.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by The Boy Wonder

I just posted this in the PGT but it’s more relevant here:

ownership is the true issue with this organization.

Everything seems to be focused on profit first (which is fine, they are running a business) but the appetite for “short term financial pain” in the form of spending on competent scouting and above average coaching doesn’t seem to be there. The longer term gains you would see from his up front investment would be a sustained period of being better and increased revenues and profit.


It’s just really hard to see how it isn’t a culture problem starting at the very top of we have only advanced past the first round twice in the past 25 years...

That’s abysmal

And honestly you would think if ~50% of teams get into the playoffs each year and ~25% of teams win a round

Then the flames have only finished a season in he top 25% of teams twice in a quarter century

I don't even really think it's a malicious "short term profit over long term success" thing. I legitimately think that the Flames think they're going about how they run the team "the right way". There is a serious sense of delusion in the Flames organization, and there has been for a long time and I think it starts and trickles down from Ken King.

It was evident in his gross miscalculation on the value of the Flames to the city in this arena situation, and I'm sure it extends into the overall team management as well.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Jbo

For all the talk about how bad we are historically, would be curious how we stack up with other teams over the same 25 year period. (Let’s say making the second round) would we be that low or comparable to lots of other teams?

Just looked up Nashville. Made playoffs 10 times, 3 first round wins, and last season made the final.

Better then us, but not as big a gap as I thought

I did this analysis last May (so probably included last season to that point...not sure)...surprised I actually managed to find the post:

Since 1990, if we're looking at playoff series victories as the key metric of success:

Thrashers/Jets - 0/0 since '99
Columbus - 0/0 since '00
Arizona - 2 series wins (same year) (includes Winnipeg years)
Florida - 3 series wins (same year) since '93
Islanders - 3 series wins over 2 seasons
Minnesota - 4 series wins over 3 seasons since '00
Nashville - 4 series wins over 4 seasons since '98
Calgary - 4 series wins over 2 seasons

Blues and Leafs haven't made the finals, but have won around a dozen series each. If we back it up a year and include our cup as a trump card, we leap frog about 7 more teams like Buffalo, Washington, Philly, SJ, etc.

Only the Islanders and Coyotes are non-expansion teams worse than us. pretty sad.

[RM14]

Originally Posted by krazycanuck

There are a few interesting concepts through this the report here on what could be done:

http://www.calgary.ca/_layouts/cocis...edirect=1&sf=1

So the the bid committee thinks that removing 2000 prime seats is a good idea. This is an awful concept for McMahon.

[Jbo]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I did this analysis last May (so probably included last season to that point...not sure)...surprised I actually managed to find the post:



Only the Islanders and Coyotes are non-expansion teams worse than us. pretty sad.

Appreciate this, thanks

[FireGilbert]

Originally Posted by jayswin

This is one of those things that you have to either share details or don't share anything. What happened?

Damn CP loves juicy gossip!

Apologies. I wanted to vent but also keep things vague as I'm not sure what the protocol is for telling stories like this.

Simply put, he broke the club dress code and when challenged on it started a fight. Stay classy.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by FireGilbert

Damn CP loves juicy gossip!

Apologies. I wanted to vent but also keep things vague as I'm not sure what the protocol is for telling stories like this.

Simply put, he broke the club dress code and when challenged on it started a fight. Stay classy.

On the positive side, at least it's not just brown guys getting bounced from clubs for not meeting dress code.

[Rubicant]

Originally Posted by Jbo

For all the talk about how bad we are historically, would be curious how we stack up with other teams over the same 25 year period. (Let’s say making the second round) would we be that low or comparable to lots of other teams?

Just looked up Nashville. Made playoffs 10 times, 3 first round wins, and last season made the final.

Better then us, but not as big a gap as I thought

The playoff record is bad, but so is the regular season (and an indicator that we have been a contender extremely rarely in our history).

Las Vegas is currently having a better year in their first season than every season except for one of ours - 88/89.

They have 48 wins (currently tied with 87/88 team - only bested by 54 wins in 88/89) and 103 points with 6 games to go... so they will likely finish with more points than 87/88 (105) and 05/06 (103) as well.

I know it's shootout aided, but man that's depressing.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by RM14

So the the bid committee thinks that removing 2000 prime seats is a good idea. This is an awful concept for McMahon.

It's actually a great idea since it'll open up the stadium more to the field of play. And the idea is the concourse would be raised and brand new, whereas the current concourse would be transformed into an in house food prep/kitchen area to make food on site.

Plus depending how extensive of a renovation they decide based on that report, the luxury suites and club seats could be closer to the field than they are now.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by nik-

I don't even really think it's a malicious "short term profit over long term success" thing. I legitimately think that the Flames think they're going about how they run the team "the right way". There is a serious sense of delusion in the Flames organization, and there has been for a long time and I think it starts and trickles down from Ken King.

It was evident in his gross miscalculation on the value of the Flames to the city in this arena situation, and I'm sure it extends into the overall team management as well.

I suppose people of the ilk of Edwards and King have been so successful in some aspects of their business lives that they're drunk on hubris. They vastly overestimate their skills as hockey people.

It's difficult to understand how that level of self-delusion can persist, though, isn't it? Don't you step back at some point and recognize hey, we're not very good at this. Our strategies don't work. We're not successful. Time to step back, hire people who genuinely know what they're doing, and leave them to do their jobs without interference.

Apparently not. We laugh at the Oilers, or the Senators now. But Flames fans are saddled with their own Katz, Melnyk, and Lowe. I know I find it increasingly difficult to maintain the delusion that the Flames are a competently run organization that has a real shot at building a contender. About the best we can hope for is one of those Cinderella runs where a goalie plays out of his mind for a few weeks.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I suppose people of the ilk of Edwards and King have been so successful in some aspects of their business lives that they're drunk on hubris. They vastly overestimate their skills as hockey people.

It's difficult to understand how that level of self-delusion can persist, though, isn't it? Don't you step back at some point and recognize hey, we're not very good at this. Our strategies don't work. We're not successful. Time to step back, hire people who genuinely know what they're doing, and leave them to do their jobs without interference.

Apparently not. We laugh at the Oilers, or the Senators now. But Flames fans are saddled with their own Katz, Melnyk, and Lowe. I know I find it increasingly difficult to maintain the delusion that the Flames are a competently run organization that has a real shot at building a contender. About the best we can hope for is one of those Cinderella runs where a goalie plays out of his mind for a few weeks.

LOL this is just silly talk and some of you are bordering on shameful with your criticism of ownership. Post 2004 lockout when have the Flames owners ever cheaped out on salaries like Melnyk? When have they ever tried to make a player (Comrie) pay from his own pocket in a trade like Lowe or pointed at their 89 Stanley Cup ring saying they know a thing about winning? Show me pictures of Edwards schmoozing arena people in Seattle or Houston like Katz.

I get that the arena situation has made many sour on ownership but this is simply the process that happens in most cities when trying to get new facilities and the Flames are no different but unlike most the Flames have not threatened moving like Pittsburgh, Edmonton, Oakland, San Diego, St. Louis, etc. It's ugly and not fun for anyone but it was inevitable that this organization would want a new arena and this drawn out process was also inevitable.

The Flames ownership has shown one thing and one thing only since 2004 and that's that they badly want to win a cup. Have they gone about things the right way? No. Have they made plenty of mistakes along the way? Absolutely. But placing them in that group of owners is the most embarrassing thing I have ever seen at CP in over a decade. Give your head a shake as Edwards didn't trade a 1st and two 2nd round picks for Hamonic that was the GM who plenty of here think is a really good GM. Edwards didn't sign Brouwer to that awful contract. Edwards didn't draft Hunter Smith in the 2nd round in 2014.

It's fine to be upset at the product on the ice and fate of the 2017/18 Calgary Flames but to place the blame of this season on ownership is laughable and embarrassing. Get it together people as maybe cheering for professional sports isn't for you a losing season causes you to throw everyone involved under the bus and compare the organization to some of the worst in North American professional sports.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Give your head a shake as Edwards didn't trade a 1st and two 2nd round picks for Hamonic that was the GM who plenty of here think is a really good GM. Edwards didn't sign Brouwer to that awful contract. Edwards didn't draft Hunter Smith in the 2nd round in 2014.

Edwards employs and continues to employ the person/s who have put the people in place that did make those decisions. Folk who need to give their head a shake are the people who are all to eager to wave off the culpability of the upper management of this organization for the horrible job they've done.

There is rot in this organization and it starts at the top.

[DiracSpike]

I'd say ownserhip's willingness to spend to the cap every year for over a decade says more about their desire to win a cup for the city than your perceptions about who they choose to employ.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

I'd say ownserhip's willingness to spend to the cap every year...

You're right, Ken King has made very poor use of their money. He's grossly mismanaged the healthy budget they provide. They outta do something about that.... Hire someone who will actually do something positive with the budget dollars they allocate towards the Flames. That they don't says far more to me about how much actual serious consideration they give the Flames.

[Rubicant]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

I'd say ownserhip's willingness to spend to the cap every year for over a decade says more about their desire to win a cup for the city than your perceptions about who they choose to employ.

Agreed. I don't know how anyone can look at the player salaries this team has had since the salary cap came in and come to the conclusion that the owners don't want to win.

Another, more reasonable argument is whether they have been the impetus behind the flawed way this team has tried to win (refusing to rebuild during the Iginla years, looking to have tried to take some short cuts in this current rebuild, etc). It looks like a lack of patience to build a winner - and when you've been very successful in a very short time in your primary business like Edwards has, I can see why they have tried to make it happen here, it just hasn't helped.

The only place where their expenditures on salary are questionable is how they tend to pay less than average on their coaching staff, and maybe their scouting staff (although who really knows on this last one).

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by Parallex

You're right, Ken King has made very poor use of their money. He's grossly mismanaged the healthy budget they provide. They outta do something about that.... Hire someone who will actually do something positive with the budget dollars they allocate towards the Flames. That they don't says far more to me about how much actual serious consideration they give the Flames.

I don't like KK either but I don't know what you expect him to do with the budget. He's not the GM. Again, I guess you disagree but to me and most people, spending to the max every year when they don't have to carries more weight than which schlub they choose to keep as team president. It's very illogical for you to conclude they don't give much consideration to the Flames for that reason, especially because you don't seem to understand what King's job is with your budget allocation comment.

[Strange Brew]

I don't think there's any question the owners want to win. Question I have is whether there is organizational pressure to short cut their way to the post season, in lieu of a long term vision of elite drafting and development.