I think Brad trades away too many picks. Most of the team is made of players drafted by the Flames.
Of the 23 players currently on the NHL roster, 11 were drafted by the Flames. It's 10 if you send Gillies down and bring up Rittich. Andersson is included in the number, although he's only played 5 games this year. So, I wouldn't classify that most of the team is made of players drafted by the Flames. I would also mention the team has been eliminated from the playoffs with several games left in the regular season. Just drafting a player doesn't mean they'll turn out to be a great player. For every draft pick that turns out as well as Tkachuk, there are many more than turn out like Nemisz.
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Originally Posted by Bingo
Jesus this site these days
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Originally Posted by Barnet Flame
He just seemed like a very nice person. I loved Squiggy.
Have to keep in mind he went into the 2015 and 2016 drafts with nine picks in each.
In 2015 he turned the excess into Hamilton.
In 2016 he used them all to select players (Tkachuk, Parsons, Dube, Fox, Lindstrom, Tuulola, Phillips)
This isn't an every year occurrence.
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Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper
The 2014 draft turned out pretty bad for the Flames. Bennett is looking more and more like a disappointment as the season chugs along, hunter smith and mason mcdonald are massive busts. Hickey is gonzo. Just a brutal draft considering how high we picked.
Scouts should’ve had Bennett flagged, no dynamic offensive qualities, questionable hockey iq, had penalty problems before he was even drafted. When you have more minor penalties then you have points, you’re not helping your team win games.
You can't re-litigate picks, you can only continually assess the picks that you've made and the circumstances under which you made them. Cam Barker, Erik Johnson, Nail Yakupov, Griffin Reinhart, Ryan Strome, Erik Gudbranson; top 5 picks traded by their drafting team. The best returns for those players on that list happened the closer they were to their draft date.
Bennett probably should've been dealt last year when there appeared to be serious, scoutable problems with his offensive game. That statement should be doubly true this year after the first 10 games of the season without a goal.
He's now in Lazar territory. 3rd round pick type return in all likelihood.
One Reason the Bennett draft was so bad? Not because of swinging and missing on Bennett. The Flames only made 6 picks that year in a 7 round draft. They had missed the playoffs for the preceding 5 seasons up to that draft, so why on earth were they drafting less than the standard amount? A team that misses the dance 5 consecutive years should be bursting at the seams with picks, not crowing about making two picks in the second round for the first time in 3 years.
The Boston Bruins have drafted 6 times in the first round in the last three years. Last draft the flames didn't make their second selection until pick #109. Just 5 picks total in the 2017 draft, one pick, 13th overall, in the first 3 rounds.
The Nashville Predators are the best team in hockey this season it appears. They lost in the Stanley Cup final last year. The last time they drafted 5 times in a draft was 2006. Do we as fans think that maybe that has something to do with their success, and maybe why picking 5-6 times a draft outside of the top 3 rounds might be a reason the Flames haven't experienced nearly that kind of success in coming up on 15 years?
In the last 10 years the Flames have won 7 total playoff games. Over that span, they have drafted in the 1st 2nd and 3rd rounds just 4 times.
What Bingo sees as notable is standard operating procedure for good teams. For the Flames, drafting in the 1st and 2nd rounds in a given year is something to be celebrated.
How do fans continually justify a team having no success while also trading draft picks, when the most successful teams in the league also happen to draft often? How long does this go on before people view comments like this being a weak draft, or it's unlikely a 2nd turns into a player etc etc before they see this obvious trend for what it is?
Top 5 teams in the league this year (minus Vegas) and volume of picks they've made in the last 3 years with 1st rounders in brackets:
1) Nashville - 21 (2)
2) Tampa - 25 (2)
3) Boston - 22 (6)
4) Winnipeg - 22 (5)
5) San Jose - 20 (2)
19) Calgary - 19 (2)
Tampa has essentially had a whole entire draft worth of picks more than Calgary. In the last 3 seasons they've been to the stanley cup final and conference final.
Boston has had 3 times as many first round picks as the Flames and lost in the conference final two years ago and the cup final 3 years ago.
Nashville has drafted 8 times in the top 3 rounds in the last 3 years while the Flames have drafted 7 times in the top 3 rounds. Nashville made the cup final last year and the Flames were swept in the first round. The year before they lost in the 2nd round and the Flames didn't make the playoffs.
3 years ago the Bruins had made 6 draft picks before the Flames had their first pick with Rasmus. They have 220 games from those picks and the Flames have 246 from Dougie and Rasmus. Dougie's outpacing those picks for points, but the Flames are paying him a premium to do so.
This year Boston has 45 points from the 2015 draft class, the Flames have 0. The Bruins have 32 points from the 2016 draft, the Flames have 49.
Even though the Flames hit an absolute home run with the Tkachuk pick, out of the last 3 drafts the Bruins have 93 points from players drafted over that time, in the last 3 drafts, the Flames have 97.
How the hell is this possible!?
St.Louis says thanks for Jordan Kyrou.
Worth it for a year of Elliott, amirite fellas? 2nd Round picks are great trade currency, amirite?
If you don't understand on an implicit level that the Flames lack of success since the 2004 lockout is directly related to the organizational philosophy that doesn't value draft picks, you never will.
Last edited by Flash Walken; 03-28-2018 at 11:46 AM.
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You can't re-litigate picks, you can only continually assess the picks that you've made and the circumstances under which you made them. Cam Barker, Erik Johnson, Nail Yakupov, Griffin Reinhart, Ryan Strome, Erik Gudbranson; top 5 picks traded by their drafting team. The best returns for those players on that list happened the closer they were to their draft date.
Bennett probably should've been dealt last year when there appeared to be serious, scoutable problems with his offensive game. That statement should be doubly true this year after the first 10 games of the season without a goal.
He's now in Lazar territory. 3rd round pick type return in all likelihood.
One Reason the Bennett draft was so bad? Not because of swinging and missing on Bennett. The Flames only made 6 picks that year in a 7 round draft. They had missed the playoffs for the preceding 5 seasons up to that draft, so why on earth were they drafting less than the standard amount? A team that misses the dance 5 consecutive years should be bursting at the seams with picks, not crowing about making two picks in the second round for the first time in 3 years.
The Boston Bruins have drafted 6 times in the first round in the last three years. Last draft the flames didn't make their second selection until pick #109. Just 5 picks total in the 2017 draft, one pick, 13th overall, in the first 3 rounds.
The Nashville Predators are the best team in hockey this season it appears. They lost in the Stanley Cup final last year. The last time they drafted 5 times in a draft was 2006. Do we as fans think that maybe that has something to do with their success, and maybe why picking 5-6 times a draft outside of the top 3 rounds might be a reason the Flames haven't experienced nearly that kind of success in coming up on 15 years?
In the last 10 years the Flames have won 5 total playoff games. Over that span, they have drafted in the 1st 2nd and 3rd rounds just 4 times.
What Bingo sees as notable is standard operating procedure for good teams. For the Flames, drafting in the 1st and 2nd rounds in a given year is something to be celebrated.
How do fans continually justify a team having no success while also trading draft picks, when the most successful teams in the league also happen to draft often? How long does this go on before people view comments like this being a weak draft, or it's unlikely a 2nd turns into a player etc etc before they see this obvious trend for what it is?
Top 5 teams in the league this year (minus Vegas) and volume of picks they've made in the last 3 years with 1st rounders in brackets:
1) Nashville - 21 (2)
2) Tampa - 25 (2)
3) Boston - 22 (6)
4) Winnipeg - 22 (5)
5) San Jose - 20 (2)
19) Calgary - 19 (2)
Tampa has essentially had a whole entire draft worth of picks more than Calgary. In the last 3 seasons they've been to the stanley cup final and conference final.
Boston has had 3 times as many first round picks as the Flames and lost in the conference final two years ago and the cup final 3 years ago.
Nashville has drafted 8 times in the top 3 rounds in the last 3 years while the Flames have drafted 7 times in the top 3 rounds. Nashville made the cup final last year and the Flames were swept in the first round. The year before they lost in the 2nd round and the Flames didn't make the playoffs.
3 years ago the Bruins had made 6 draft picks before the Flames had their first pick with Rasmus. They have 220 games from those picks and the Flames have 246 from Dougie and Rasmus. Dougie's outpacing those picks for points, but the Flames are paying him a premium to do so.
This year Boston has 45 points from the 2015 draft class, the Flames have 0. The Bruins have 32 points from the 2016 draft, the Flames have 49.
Even though the Flames hit an absolute home run with the Tkachuk pick, out of the last 3 drafts the Bruins have 93 points from players drafted over that time, in the last 3 drafts, the Flames have 97.
How the hell is this possible!?
St.Louis says thanks for Jordan Kyrou.
Worth it for a year of Elliott, amirite fellas? 2nd Round picks are great trade currency, amirite?
If you don't understand on an implicit level that the Flames lack of success since the 2004 lockout is directly related to the organizational philosophy that doesn't value draft picks, you never will.
Agree with everything you said, trading a first round pick is very naive unless you are trading for a game changer. That’s why the Hamonic trade is so brutal as he is not a game changer, he is not going to bump a team from bubble to contender, and to think he would do that is just flat out dumb. The two seconds on top of that along with the second for Lazar just makes me angry. The team has yet to learn from their mistakes and is continually flushing picks away to try and win now. This hasn’t worked for the Flames in recent history, this Hamonic trade just amplifies that. We will suffer the consequences at the draft. Hamonic is a good guy, but he is an average no.4 Dman and to think we traded a first and two seconds for him makes me sick.
If the Islanders manage to draft Zadina or Svechnikov with our pick Treliving will look just like Chiarelli.
Last edited by Beninho; 03-28-2018 at 11:45 AM.
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Agree with everything you said, trading a first round pick is very naive unless you are trading for a game changer. That’s why the Hamonic trade is so brutal as he is not a game changer, he is not going to bump a team from bubble to contender, and to think he would do that is just flat out dumb. The two seconds on top of that along with the second for Lazar just makes me angry. The team has yet to learn from their mistakes and is continually flushing picks away to try and win now. This hasn’t worked for the Flames in recent history, this Hamonic trade just amplifies that. We will suffer the consequences at the draft. Hamonic is a good guy, but he is an average no.4 Dman and to think we traded a first and two seconds for him makes me sick.
If the Islanders manage to draft Zadina or Svechnikov with our pick Treliving will look just like Chiarelli.
And if it's a 12OA pick or later I say Hamonic is a better player than the average one out of that position. Have a look at the amount of games played by draftees from that position.
And if it's a 12OA pick or later I say Hamonic is a better player than the average one out of that position. Have a look at the amount of games played by draftees from that position.
You can also look at high end players who have been drafted recently in the first round after the #12 pick. Look at Barzal, Boeser, Pastrnak, Aho. Yes the percentages aren’t exceedingly high to draft a franchise player past the top 10 but I would rather roll the dice on the Flames finding a high end game game changing player in this years draft than having Hamonic for the next 3 years. I don’t see how anyone cannot have this same view.
Hamonic was not an improvement over Enggeland, How can anyone justify trading a lottery pick plus 2 seconds for him. I don’t care what Treliving thought the pick was going to be or how good he thought this team is. Too many variables go into a season and the risk of trading an unprotected first by a bubble team is just way too high. Treliving made a big #### up and that is why he’s trying to get a first round pick now.
If you don't understand on an implicit level that the Flames lack of success since the 2004 lockout is directly related to the organizational philosophy that doesn't value draft picks, you never will.
It all stems from the WIN-NOW attitude (from the impatient fans) and the pride of not tanking to reload the teams properly. By teams, it's not stocking the farm with depth talent in all position, but stocking them with depth in one or two positions.
Sure, the Win-now philosophy gets the team competitive enough to get into the playoffs. But the team chokes either getting there or exits early in the playoffs. This philosophy fails in so many ways since early exits hardly make all that much money as opposed to a team that competes for the cup in deep playoff runs. Secondly, in the long run, the team has no good assets to build upon. So, it's a vicious cycle of being a bubble team, reloading with free-agency with ugly contracts, and dwindling talent pool. I'd rather see a proper rebuild and have a glorious Flames future than seeing a bust again like this year and repeating every other year.
Bennett probably should've been dealt last year when there appeared to be serious, scoutable problems with his offensive game. That statement should be doubly true this year after the first 10 games of the season without a goal.
He's now in Lazar territory. 3rd round pick type return in all likelihood.
This isn't even close to true.
It's amazing how much the slide in ceiling for Bennett has had people adjusting his floor down at the same time.
A guy that can skate with jam and pop in 10-15 goals and 10-15 assists and makes less than 2.0M a year has huge value.
More so to keep than to trade.
But to toss him into Lazar and 3rd round pick territory is just spinning a pissy narrative to a degree that is getting silly.
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It's amazing how much the slide in ceiling for Bennett has had people adjusting his floor down at the same time.
A guy that can skate with jam and pop in 10-15 goals and 10-15 assists and makes less than 2.0M a year has huge value.
More so to keep than to trade.
But to toss him into Lazar and 3rd round pick territory is just spinning a pissy narrative to a degree that is getting silly.
Should we be happy that the highest pick in franchise history has shown zero growth and seems to be a career 30-40 pt player? I wouldn't blame fans for thinking that Bennett's value has plummeted the last 2 seasons, because is has. Bennett has less value than Domi but probably a little more value than Duclair. Yay
Am I the only one who thinks that not having a 1st this year isn’t the end of the world? Sure the draft might be boring but it’s not going to set us back years. We didn’t trade for a rental and miss the playoffs, we traded it for three guaranteed years of a top-4 defenseman. Year one didn’t work out but who’s to say Hamonic can’t be a big part in helping us make the playoffs next year or the year after? It’s way too early and reactionary to be judging that trade, and quite frankly I’m getting sick of reading about it in every thread.
I agree. If the pick wins the lottery fine the trade is a terrible trade but if the pick is 10-12 overall I'm still ok with the trade. IMO Hamonic has been a very good player it's more his d partner that is the issue
If NYI does not win the lottery with the Flames pick and the Flames trade Brodie for a quality return and the cap savings is spent wisely this team can make the next step still. Odds are that first won't be any better than Hamonic. So really they are out a couple 2nds.
Should we be happy that the highest pick in franchise history has shown zero growth and seems to be a career 30-40 pt player? I wouldn't blame fans for thinking that Bennett's value has plummeted the last 2 seasons, because is has. Bennett has less value than Domi but probably a little more value than Duclair. Yay
Sorry to pick on you ...
But come on.
Give your head a shake. Nowhere did I say you couldn't be disappointed, but I guess I'm in the minority where I'm able to check emotion and look at assets for what they are ...
Bennett was a consensus top 4 pick in a draft that highlighted four players that were elite. The Flames had the fourth pick so they were always going to get the guy left over.
He's a good NHL player. He's not as good as Draisatl, but then all of Reinhart, Bennett and Ekblad have had their struggles to some degree.
My point was that you can't just ignore what he is ... you can't let your disappointment for what he could have been shade the fact that he's an above average 3rd line NHL player on a decent contract.
That's asset management and logic.
The rest is just a whiny guy stomping his feet, and personally I'm tired of it.
Of the 23 players currently on the NHL roster, 11 were drafted by the Flames. It's 10 if you send Gillies down and bring up Rittich. Andersson is included in the number, although he's only played 5 games this year. So, I wouldn't classify that most of the team is made of players drafted by the Flames. I would also mention the team has been eliminated from the playoffs with several games left in the regular season. Just drafting a player doesn't mean they'll turn out to be a great player. For every draft pick that turns out as well as Tkachuk, there are many more than turn out like Nemisz.
I would probably count Gio as well as he was essentially homegrown even though the flames signed him as an undrafted player.
It all stems from the WIN-NOW attitude (from the impatient fans) and the pride of not tanking to reload the teams properly. By teams, it's not stocking the farm with depth talent in all position, but stocking them with depth in one or two positions.
Sure, the Win-now philosophy gets the team competitive enough to get into the playoffs. But the team chokes either getting there or exits early in the playoffs. This philosophy fails in so many ways since early exits hardly make all that much money as opposed to a team that competes for the cup in deep playoff runs. Secondly, in the long run, the team has no good assets to build upon. So, it's a vicious cycle of being a bubble team, reloading with free-agency with ugly contracts, and dwindling talent pool. I'd rather see a proper rebuild and have a glorious Flames future than seeing a bust again like this year and repeating every other year.
The problem with this is everyone assumes that team rebuilding and drafting in the top 5 every year automatically become cup contenders
Since the Crosby draft 26 teams have drafted a top 5 pick (pretty much the whole league)
Teams that have had 3 or more:
Edmonton - 6
Islanders - 6
Leafs - 4
Panthers - 4
Colorado - 4
Carolina - 3
Tampa - 3
Columbus - 3
Winnipeg/Atl - 3
Kings - 3
Winnipeg is great now but overall they have drafted very well after their top 5 picks and this is their first year of being good. Tampa also has drafted very good after the 3 top 5 picks they had. The leafs are also looking good but they may have some cap issues and this year might be their best chance for a few. LA is the only ones that won a cup and one of their top 5 picks was Hickey. Really only Doughty was worth a top 5 pick
Other than those teams I see a whole lot of suck with the rest.
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