Francis: Tire Fire

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I get the market and that a guy like Hamonic can fetch a 1st round pick but I'm really surprised that the Islanders got the 1st and two 2nds (this is a lot on it's own) for this guy. I think there's a reason he was available for such a long time as nobody wanted to pay the price and Snow just waited out GM's for over a season knowing that a few of them would get desperate. I just hate that it was the GM of my team. I don't mind the player but he's worth nowhere near what the Flames paid to acquire him.

https://www.tsn.ca/statistically-spe...value-1.786131

I disagree. There's a very strong chance that none of the picks we traded even plays 100 games in the NHL, let alone sniffing Hamonic's career. As always, draft picks are lottery tickets. Hamonic also has age, and team control with a sweetheart contract going for him, both invaluable things in today's NHL.
If anything we should be happy, because Brodie should be able to fetch a similar amount in return.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Seconds are super hit and miss to even play in a bottom 6 fwd/bottom 2 D role, so lets talk about the first. Treliving realistically pegs his team at either just outside or in up to maybe second place in the pacific, so, say 14-24. The chances of getting a Hamonic in that range are not great.

I don't think it was a steal either way - it was a fair price and it's going to look better as time goes on. IMO Hamonic has staying power. Also, he may not be a scorer but he's got above average IQ and passing skills, in addition to being a really good defender.

I've only seen glimpses of Hamonic's actual hockey skill set. I agree he's been good defensively and on PK but whenever I've seen him skate the puck into the offensive zone or handle it offensively it's pretty much turned over shortly thereafter.

I've also seen bad d to d passes between him and Brodie (inaccurate) and often times teams were dumping into his end and he was getting stuck along the boards dealing with the pressure.

In this system he has to go d to d and up...and Hamonic goes up the boards a lot more than a good pass into the middle.

He's a leader and great in the community but the things he's done on the ice aren't of the first and two seconds quality. At least not this year.

Treliving has paid high for 'in the room' or 'in the community' intangibles in both Brouwer and Hamonic and they haven't translated into on ice excellence - what you expect for the prices paid.

[kukkudo]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

https://www.tsn.ca/statistically-spe...value-1.786131

I disagree. There's a very strong chance that none of the picks we traded even plays 100 games in the NHL, let alone sniffing Hamonic's career. As always, draft picks are lottery tickets. Hamonic also has age, and team control with a sweetheart contract going for him, both invaluable things in today's NHL.
If anything we should be happy, because Brodie should be able to fetch a similar amount in return.

Maybe 2014-2015 Brodie

[Scroopy Noopers]

Don't forget a lot of the value in Hamonic was his contract length and favourable cap hit for a defensemen of his age and calibre.

Remember what Edmonton paid for a 2nd goalie of a defenseman.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by kukkudo

Maybe 2014-2015 Brodie

Maybe you forgot how terrible Hamonic was the season before we acquired him?

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Bingo

What is the value of the protected vs non protected Jets pick at the deadline when they were within weeks of claiming a playoff position and well over .500?

It was a nuance.

It wouldn't have changed the deal either way.

Treliving either never asked for it (pointless mistake) or asked and was turned down because the Islanders saw a deal with a wild card team having an extra kicker of value. Treliving goes ahead anyway because ...

a) he thinks his team is about to improve
b) he knows it's a weaker draft

The Jets comparison doesn't really fit.

I think there can be an argument made about a lottery pick - teams miss the playoffs it happens.

But I honestly think if the Flames insisted on top 3 protected that it wouldn't have put a hold on the deal.

[Corral]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

https://www.tsn.ca/statistically-spe...value-1.786131

I disagree. There's a very strong chance that none of the picks we traded even plays 100 games in the NHL, let alone sniffing Hamonic's career. As always, draft picks are lottery tickets. Hamonic also has age, and team control with a sweetheart contract going for him, both invaluable things in today's NHL.
If anything we should be happy, because Brodie should be able to fetch a similar amount in return.

The Flames have been telling themselves this for decades ... and some wonder why we can't seem to build a perpetual winner.

[Bonded]

Real question is do you trade Brodie or see if he can rebound under a new coach.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Bonded

Real question is do you trade Brodie or see if he can rebound under a new coach.

Me? New coach.
Tre? Who knows. Sell low?

* Depends of course on the offer on the table. You don’t turn down a trade you believe you win

[Monahammer]

If a bubble team in the east (Florida?) Offered their 1st in 19 and 2 2nds I would trade brodie...

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

https://www.tsn.ca/statistically-spe...value-1.786131

I disagree. There's a very strong chance that none of the picks we traded even plays 100 games in the NHL, let alone sniffing Hamonic's career. As always, draft picks are lottery tickets. Hamonic also has age, and team control with a sweetheart contract going for him, both invaluable things in today's NHL.
If anything we should be happy, because Brodie should be able to fetch a similar amount in return.

You are wrong for a few simple reasons:

(A) 3 fairly high picks are 3 shots to hit a home run. We know Hamonick is a complementary piece and not a franchise difference maker. If you keep trading picks for mediocre players you will always have a mediocre team

(B) If you are set on trading those picks and really wanted to go for it, it turns out you could have added Stastny and Kane and still had a 2nd left. Picks are currency and you certainly could have done better than a mediocre defenseman, especially given the D depth we already have

(C) If things go really ill, Treliving will forever be known as the idiot that traded Niedermayer for Kurvers and added 2 2nd round picks for good measure.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Bonded

Real question is do you trade Brodie or see if he can rebound under a new coach.

If a team is willing to pay like the Flames did for Hamonic after a bad year for Brodie then do it otherwise new coach, right side, hope for a bounce back.

They need to move a Dman for a forward this summer though

[Machiavelli]

Brodie+ for Simmonds

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Machiavelli

Brodie+ for Simmonds

Do the Flames want to trade for a 30 year old that needs a new contract after next year?

[Mr.Coffee]

I actually think Hamonic is grossly underrated around these parts because it’s just what people have seen this year. When Hamonic was on the Islanders he was a legit budding star, a kinda 1-2 Dman on a cap friendly deal. You bet your ass if you’re trading picks for the guy you were going to have to pony up.

You have to think of these trades as what the player was at the time. Not many people thought it was a crazy overpayment. In retrospect Treliving was thinking this team is better than what it was. New York did too I bet. So Treliving offers what, a potential later round first pick, like pick +20 and yeah, he’s gonna need to add more than one more pick at +40th overall. Was it an overpayment? I suppose a little yeah, but not quite the highway banditry this site is making it out to be based on the value of the assets at that time in my opinion. Treliving also was likely thinking that this season was his chance to really make this a cup contender by adding a more defensive defenceman to a fairly offensive style D corps. Plus with Gulutzans horrendous system, if you could even call it a system, he probably thought Hamonic would be a very helpful young player, it also provides more legit NHL defensive depth rather than hoping Anderson or Valimaki would be ready when they most likely wouldn’t be.

To be honest the Hamonic trade strikes me as one of the most hindsight is 20/20 perspectives I’ve read of fan opinions on this site in a long time.

Lastly, and this is really really important, and goes especially for Brodie too... but I think you REALLY, need to fix the coaching staff and see what they can do with some of these players. We have seen these players perform at a very high level. Look at the expectations going into this season based on this roster. You don’t start trading players until you can clearly fix blame on them for losing. At this point you can’t, but you can see the coaching has so many flaws it’s mindboggling.

What could a fresh coaching staff and system do with Hamonic? Brodie? Giordano? Like these are all really good, or at one point were really good players. Just because Gulutzan couldn’t figure out he needed to use a system to players strengths doesn’t mean you jettison these players and beat them up for not performing for a failure of a coach.

Just admit what the problem is, swallow your pride, try a new coach and don’t do anything stupid.

[Flamefan1]

First and most important move is definitely changing out all 3 bench coaches. Give our core players a chance to show what they can do under NHL caliber coaching. What a shame it would be to get rid of our young talent the way the Oilers have only to find that the major problem along was the coaches. Brad do the right thing.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Do the Flames want to trade for a 30 year old that needs a new contract after next year?

He's my pick for the worst contract that off season. Absolutely love Simmonda but he is going to get way overpaid

[dirk diggler]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

You are wrong for a few simple reasons:

(A) 3 fairly high picks are 3 shots to hit a home run. We know Hamonick is a complementary piece and not a franchise difference maker. If you keep trading picks for mediocre players you will always have a mediocre team

(B) If you are set on trading those picks and really wanted to go for it, it turns out you could have added Stastny and Kane and still had a 2nd left. Picks are currency and you certainly could have done better than a mediocre defenseman, especially given the D depth we already have

(C) If things go really ill, Treliving will forever be known as the idiot that traded Niedermayer for Kurvers and added 2 2nd round picks for good measure.

This is the trade I thought about when the trade was made. at least with Hamilton, you knew what pick you were giving up. Sweet Lou really fleeced the Leafs on that one. Terrible trade, depending on what the pick is, this trade might define BT, much like Risebrough trading Gilmour.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by btimbit

He's my pick for the worst contract that off season. Absolutely love Simmonda but he is going to get way overpaid

Simmonds could easily be another Brouwer - looks good, killed the Flames in the past, seems to check a bunch of boxes, but it's just possible he hits a wall.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Simmonds could easily be another Brouwer - looks good, killed the Flames in the past, seems to check a bunch of boxes, but it's just possible he hits a wall.

Agree - don't trade a lot of assets or sign big UFA deals for "physical" players who are on the wrong side of 30 (or whom will be soon).

Those bigger, physical guys always wear down quick after 30 since it's tough to play that way for a long time.

Lucic was 29, Brouwer was 31, Backes was 31 and all those teams already regret those contracts at this point.

IMO the first line guys doesn't need to be "big" but there are a couple of "bigger" guys I like for line 3/4 RW. Brett Connolly, Tyler Pitlick, or Joel Armia are all RH shots, over 6'2" , between 24-26 years old, and have 15 or so goals and 25 or so points in bottom 6 minutes this year.