Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[Barnes]

That's a bot, right?

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Hangman

Stoney Trail is a provincial project and schools are also a provincial responsibility.

No argument regarding CTrain and Snow Removal. However part of the responsibilty for both of those lies with tax payers who do not in any way wish to see their taxes go up to pay for such things.

Stoney trail is a provincial roadway but the city is the one that dictates what get's built and for how much. Many of the North interchanges have been supposedly approved by the City of Calgary for years, only to sit partially built due to funding constraints.

I don't know any taxpayer that is opposed to better snow removal services for an increased cost provided it can actually be noticed after the fact either. Perhaps the saved cost from the green bin winter pickup fiasco should be re-allocated to snow removal.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Barnes

That's a bot, right?

Well, if someone were to tell me that Ken King was willing to hire a Russian troll factory I wouldn't automatically disbelieve it...

[Flamenfame]

Yes I am a russian bot hired by Trump to force Calgary to build an Arena Flames are going to be moved I can feel it , Seattle wants a team bad Houston as well Murray owe Calgary nothing , if he has a city offering him a nice new shiny Arena for peanut lease kiss them goodbye. Happened in Winninpeg with a dumb cinty councill that down road built an Arena anyways and Quebec who has a nice new empty one. The Flames franchise has already moved once .

[Looch City]

Really, I don't care. Move this ####ty team and Gulutzan along with them. Sign Brouwer to a 10 year extension as well.

I'd rather have no team than 10 years of this team.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by Flamenfame

Well I am tired of the city subsidizing all these businesses it needs to stop . They give money to all theses comouter companies networking companies , money spent on fuel , all the cash on office supplies office space how dare they make non Calgary companies profit . Lol The amount of money wasted last 20 years on wasted crap in Calgary would easily put up a Arena and Stadium . It is funny these days Edmonton for 50 years were locked into a 1800's mindset afraid to build downtown afraid to do anything . While Clagary was building and very progressive at building a major city, now it's like the complete Opposite Edmonton has been building arena's finished the Henday are expanding The LRT everywhere and is moving at a very progressive rate while Calgary seems to be taking a 19 century stance. Quite the Shame

Pretty early to be tripping balls.

[Locke]

After paying my own City of Calgary Business Taxes I am not exactly in a Philanthropic mood.

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by Locke

After paying my own City of Calgary Business Taxes I am not exactly in a Philanthropic mood.

Great! My computer and networking company is looking forward to our new office supplies.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Care to fill me in?

Built shiny tall buildings, went broke. Torode in particular went broke in Vic Park. Not an argument for government subsidy - just an argument that maybe the Flames have looked at the economics and can't do it without help.

If that's right, but if government can't or won't help, they shouldn't build and we shouldn't complain that they aren't building. And we shouldn't complain if they get a better deal somewhere else, or even say that it's possible that they would move. I honestly don't get all the anger when they say that's some sort of option down the road ("how dare they threaten to move"). It's really their only leverage, and it's not even untrue.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

Stoney trail is a provincial roadway but the city is the one that dictates what get's built and for how much. Many of the North interchanges have been supposedly approved by the City of Calgary for years, only to sit partially built due to funding constraints.

This is an outright lie. You should probably read up a bit more before making comments like this.

[CorbeauNoir]

Originally Posted by Flamenfame

Sounds to me horrible miss management of city funds , where have all those booming Tax dollars gone. How are smaller cities managing to maintain services and build new stadiums and Arena's Face it Flames will be moved without a new Arena , well I guess eveyone can head to the other tax payers funded ventures that the councli people of Calgary thought was real important like a 245 million dollar library in which everything can be found online , must keep those bookworms happy Am I right that's there entertainment.

Sorry to everybody for trotting this out again but...

The Calgary Public Library (CPL) is a distributed library system featuring 18 branch locations including the Central Library.[1] It is the second most used system in Canada (after the Toronto Public Library)[2] and the sixth most used library system in North America.[3] This is despite the fact that the Calgary Public Library has one of the lowest per capita funding in the country, receiving as little as half the money of other Canadian public libraries. [4] [5] [6]

I can't help but appreciate the irony that people are still beating the google-is-replacing-libraries horse when a basic wiki search provides a compelling argument to expand Calgary's overburdened and underfunded library infastructure.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I honestly don't get all the anger when they say that's some sort of option down the road ("how dare they threaten to move"). It's really their only leverage, and it's not even untrue.

...and that's fine.

But if that's the case then they shouldn't front like they're some kind of civic institution. You can be a business and assert your leverage... but then don't regal us with disingenuous claims of "cultural fabric" or assert how you're a "critical social part of the city" or constantly do your dead filipino lady story. IMO you can be a cutthroat business or you can be an unofficial public trust... but you can't be both.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Parallex

...and that's fine.

But if that's the case then they shouldn't front like they're some kind of civic institution. You can be a business and assert your leverage... but then don't regal us with disingenuous claims of "cultural fabric" or assert how you're a "critical social part of the city" or constantly do your dead filipino lady story. IMO you can be a cutthroat business or you can be an unofficial public trust... but you can't be both.

Saying it's uneconomic isn't "cutthroat" IMO - it's just an argument, and plenty of businesses promote their good works. A business can indeed be part of the cultural fabric of a city. It's silly to think otherwise. Are the Flames? One could argue they aren't, but it's not disingenuous for them to think they are or try to make that argument.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

and plenty of businesses promote their good works.

...and how many of them then attempt to use those good works as a justification for demanding hundreds of millions of dollars in public (taxpayer) subsidies?

I see relocation threats as basically emotional extortion. Emotionally extorting someone to not only have them give you money for no goods or services rendered but to get everyone else (even those who wouldn't even consume the product willingly) give you money for no goods or services rendered. Yeah, that sounds pretty cutthroat to me.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Flamenfame

Sounds to me horrible miss management of city funds , where have all those booming Tax dollars gone. How are smaller cities managing to maintain services and build new stadiums and Arena's Face it Flames will be moved without a new Arena , well I guess eveyone can head to the other tax payers funded ventures that the councli people of Calgary thought was real important like a 245 million dollar library in which everything can be found online , must keep those bookworms happy Am I right that's there entertainment.

Originally Posted by Flamenfame

Well I am tired of the city subsidizing all these businesses it needs to stop . They give money to all theses comouter companies networking companies , money spent on fuel , all the cash on office supplies office space how dare they make non Calgary companies profit . Lol The amount of money wasted last 20 years on wasted crap in Calgary would easily put up a Arena and Stadium . It is funny these days Edmonton for 50 years were locked into a 1800's mindset afraid to build downtown afraid to do anything . While Clagary was building and very progressive at building a major city, now it's like the complete Opposite Edmonton has been building arena's finished the Henday are expanding The LRT everywhere and is moving at a very progressive rate while Calgary seems to be taking a 19 century stance. Quite the Shame

Originally Posted by Flamenfame

Yes I am a russian bot hired by Trump to force Calgary to build an Arena Flames are going to be moved I can feel it , Seattle wants a team bad Houston as well Murray owe Calgary nothing , if he has a city offering him a nice new shiny Arena for peanut lease kiss them goodbye. Happened in Winninpeg with a dumb cinty councill that down road built an Arena anyways and Quebec who has a nice new empty one. The Flames franchise has already moved once .

Jesus.
After reading your posts the bold part really makes sense.
Ironic that the guy who seems to be against the new library, and doesn't seem to understand everything the library is used for, is probably the person in this thread who could most benefit from the services it will/does offer.

[Monahammer]

If they're petulant enough to try the move, so be it. I am still utterly unconvinced that the board of governors would pass that, or that rogers and their enormous canadian TV deal would be on board.
I'm a lifelong flames fan that would be pretty sad to see them go, but I would lay all of the blame on current ownership. The owners who many of you proponents say have built up their charities and names to have reputations in town. Are they willing to sacrifice those reputations as well? Because that is what will happen. I see Murray Edwards as already being ok with that eventuality, I am not sure some of the others would be.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by CorbeauNoir

Sorry to everybody for trotting this out again but...



I can't help but appreciate the irony that people are still beating the google-is-replacing-libraries horse when a basic wiki search provides a compelling argument to expand Calgary's overburdened and underfunded library infastructure.

I think the argument often is that Calgary should put money into the branches and the materials offered instead of pouring all that money into one building. not that libraries are useless.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Parallex

...and how many of them then attempt to use those good works as a justification for demanding hundreds of millions of dollars in public (taxpayer) subsidies?

I see relocation threats as basically emotional extortion. Emotionally extorting someone to not only have them give you money for no goods or services rendered but to get everyone else (even those who wouldn't even consume the product willingly) give you money for no goods or services rendered. Yeah, that sounds pretty cutthroat to me.

You say "demanding". I say they are asking and making the best argument they can as to why it's justified. I mean, I get it - you don't want a single dime of taxpayer money going to them. I imagine you hate the deal they have now. So why not just say you don't support any deal and leave it at that?

Speaking of emotional, raging about taxpayer subsidies, calling one side "cutthroat" for using the only leverage they really have (and exaggerating the so-called threat") and completely dismissing any positive effect having an NHL team and an NHL arena has for the city, tangible or no, might be copnstrued as somewhat emotional.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Flamenfame

Sounds to me horrible miss management of city funds , where have all those booming Tax dollars gone. How are smaller cities managing to maintain services and build new stadiums and Arena's Face it Flames will be moved without a new Arena , well I guess eveyone can head to the other tax payers funded ventures that the councli people of Calgary thought was real important like a 245 million dollar library in which everything can be found online , must keep those bookworms happy Am I right that's there entertainment.

Don't disparage Ms. Management.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

If they're petulant enough to try the move, so be it. I am still utterly unconvinced that the board of governors would pass that, or that rogers and their enormous canadian TV deal would be on board.
I'm a lifelong flames fan that would be pretty sad to see them go, but I would lay all of the blame on current ownership. The owners who many of you proponents say have built up their charities and names to have reputations in town. Are they willing to sacrifice those reputations as well? Because that is what will happen. I see Murray Edwards as already being ok with that eventuality, I am not sure some of the others would be.

If the Flames continue to slide into loss territory and no new building is on the horizon, the BOG won't block a move. Add to that the flames ownership probably isn't all that interested in funding losses like other owners did in the past while waiting for cost certainty.

I very much doubt that Rogers has a say in franchises staying or going.

The reputation thing is nice for the owners, but if they're making a $5 million dollar operating income last year, and its sliding to that negative mark, would anyone blame them for moving? I probably wouldn't its business, and its that simple.

I would imagine a lot of people who they do business with are wondering what they're waiting for.