Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[stone hands]

Anyone that discredits the flames ownership's generous donations is as folly as anyone thinking it entitles them to funding from the government because of it

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by calgarywinning

The City has to clean up the grounds on the west side at some point. They got duped into buying the contaminated grounds leaching into the river. The cleanup costs of the project is a major expense, which the City quoted some ridiculous cost in their evaluation (around 800 million if I remember).

That's outside the scope of the project. Will the City look after their responsibility to do this? Or they intend to control the land while it is contaminated. Maybe they wait 30 years and soil tests will show the contamination has leached away.

The city certainly did not say the cleanup was going to cost $800M, I believe they estimated $300M at the high end. The city DID look at all the costs that would be incurred by the city if the CalgaryNEXT project went ahead as proposed. That included lots of costs that were only indirectly related, but nevertheless would be required. The number was $1.8B. The city never claimed that all of this was the cost of CalgaryNEXT (The city assumed CSEC’s cost of the building to be correct). The city must consider all costs when determining if something like that is feasible, and that’s what they did.

Even if every single councillor and the mayor wanted to go ahead with the CalgaryNEXT plan, it STILL could not possibly have happened. That’s how much money the city would have had to front under that proposal. The city doesn’t just have a billion and a half dollars sitting around.

[Manhattanboy]

Nm

[leah12]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Cross out luxury boxes and replace it with "Professional Hockey in Calgary". Because that's what we'll lose. Maybe you care about that or maybe you don't but let's be real and stop pretending that people are seriously arguing for better luxury boxes.

Also hilarious to see internet posters discard growing multi billion dollar businesses by "being in the right place and time" and discrediting massive financial donations to hospitals. You guys are the real heroes.

I doubt we'd lose professional hockey in Calgary if the Flames left town. We could easily support an AHL team in addition to the Hitmen.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by leah12

I doubt we'd lose professional hockey in Calgary if the Flames left town. We could easily support an AHL team in addition to the Hitmen.

Wow an AHL team to cheer for. No thanks. Would you waste your time on a Hitmen or AHL forum?

[cal_guy]

If hockey is so essential of a public good that Canadians must spend hundreds of millions dollars of subsidies per franchise to support it's function it's clear what needs to be done.

We need to nationalize professional hockey.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Cross out luxury boxes and replace it with "Professional Hockey in Calgary". Because that's what we'll lose. Maybe you care about that or maybe you don't but let's be real and stop pretending that people are seriously arguing for better luxury boxes.

Also hilarious to see internet posters discard growing multi billion dollar businesses by "being in the right place and time" and discrediting massive financial donations to hospitals. You guys are the real heroes.

There is a reasonable amount of dumb luck in any successful person's accomplishments. And I think that any non-narcissistic person who is successful would fully admit this. No matter how smart or hardworking someone is, they still have to be in the right place at the right time to some extent.

[Robbob]

I think the bottom line is the flames ownership and flames, through the flames foundation do a lot of good things for the right reasons. It is a benefit to the city.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Wait... what the eff do those people have to be "insulted" about? That the response to their demand that taxpayers dole out $250,000,000.00 in upfront subsidy followed by millions more annually wasn't positive?

There were stories that came out that talks between the groups got snippy and disrespectful. Sounds like it was close and just went completely off the rails.

[taxbuster]

Originally Posted by stone hands

I mean in regards to Calgary next/new arena

Charitable donations by individuals are there to help the community for the sake of helping the community, not to curry favor with the government to be given subsidies for your private enterprise

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

So the incredible contributions to the local community by the owners of the Flames, in the hundreds of millions, is irrelevant to the discussion?

Wow.

Originally Posted by Robbob

I think the bottom line is the flames ownership and flames, through the flames foundation do a lot of good things for the right reasons. It is a benefit to the city.

As a tax pro and someone deeply involved in the philanthropic sector over the past 20 years, I think I can say honestly that most people here have no idea of what is involved in the donation of large amounts to charities and/or the local community.

While goodwill is also built as a side-effect, in many cases, the major point is aggrandizing the donor (naming rights etc.). Nothing wrong with that, but frequently it's about ego as a motivator.

Where money is donated anonymously this is, of course, not so - and in most cases these gifts are most closely matched to the definition of true "philanthropy" - that is, giving without expectation of anything.

And, in the case of the Flames Foundation, for all that it does, the VAST majority of its funds come from YOU who buy 50/50s etc at the 'Dome, participants in golf and poker tourneys etc. Read their financial statements at CRA. Recently, there is only a very small smattering of "donations" (ie tax-creditable amounts). Most funding has nothing to do with the owners - who nonetheless are given most of the credit, even if somewhat wrongly.

[wired]

Both sides are at fault I would bet. The mayor is so full of himself.....lets see how the next election goes when the Hitmen are the only pro hockey in Calgary.
Then they will move where the Flames go.

[wired]

I, for one am not for taxpayers footing the bill for an arena.....I am paying for a new arena I will most likely never set foot in.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by wired

Both sides are at fault I would bet. The mayor is so full of himself.....lets see how the next election goes when the Hitmen are the only pro hockey in Calgary.
Then they will move where the Flames go.

I think many people, and myself, voted for him because he wasn’t going to be handing a new taxpayer paid arena over to the CSEC to use at their discretion. I guess if the question comes up again by next election we should see the same results.

[Manhattanboy]

Nm

[KevanGuy]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Wow an AHL team to cheer for. No thanks. Would you waste your time on a Hitmen or AHL forum?

Yeah.

[calgarywinning]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

The city certainly did not say the cleanup was going to cost $800M, I believe they estimated $300M at the high end. The city DID look at all the costs that would be incurred by the city if the CalgaryNEXT project went ahead as proposed. That included lots of costs that were only indirectly related, but nevertheless would be required. The number was $1.8B. The city never claimed that all of this was the cost of CalgaryNEXT (The city assumed CSEC’s cost of the building to be correct). The city must consider all costs when determining if something like that is feasible, and that’s what they did.

Even if every single councillor and the mayor wanted to go ahead with the CalgaryNEXT plan, it STILL could not possibly have happened. That’s how much money the city would have had to front under that proposal. The city doesn’t just have a billion and a half dollars sitting around.

All fair, but without Arena should the land not currently be undergoing the cleanup process. The contamination has spread into the river and has been detected on the other side. This is the part I don't get.

[soulchoice]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Wow an AHL team to cheer for. No thanks. Would you waste your time on a Hitmen or AHL forum?

Agreed, I dont care about the Hitmen nor any other team in Calgary besides the Flames, let alone if the day comes the Flames are not in the city.

As far as the posts i have seen, the city definitely does need a field house. However in my opinion, the Stamps do not need a new home. Not that McMahaon is good by any stretch. However, overall the Stamps just arent a big enough draw, as important to the city, nor carry the same weight as a Major league sports team. Unless whatever is built is multipurpose and able to be used for more than just CFL football.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by calgarywinning

All fair, but without Arena should the land not currently be undergoing the cleanup process. The contamination has spread into the river and has been detected on the other side. This is the part I don't get.

My understanding of the situation is that the containment wall that was installed in the mid-90s is still doing its job and preventing the leaking of any additional contamination into the river.

The contamination levels downstream from the site dropped significantly once the barrier wall was installed. The assessments indicate that the contaminants found in West Hillhurst/Westmount are likely from the initial contamination from the site that was discovered in the late 80s that prompted the installation of the containment wall. Those contaminants migrated across the river over the years (see Conclusions on page 33: http://aep.alberta.ca/land/programs-...ow-Mar2014.pdf).

If that's the case, there's no urgency to do anything to clean up the site. It's not getting any better, but it's also not getting any worse. Until it's time to start developing the site, there's no need to do anything. The car dealers and Greyhound station aren't the greatest use of the land, but at least they're generating some revenue for the city in the meantime.


The provincial government has a page dedicated to the creosote contamination and the monitoring of the contaminations: http://aep.alberta.ca/land/programs-...e/default.aspx

Last year, they began a five-year study of the sites on the north side of the river. The first annual report should be filed within the next couple of months (expected in the second quarter of 2018).

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by wired

Both sides are at fault I would bet. The mayor is so full of himself.....lets see how the next election goes when the Hitmen are the only pro hockey in Calgary.
Then they will move where the Flames go.

I agree that Nenshi is full of himself and even full of s*** most of the time but fact is he will be hard to beat, he has 80% of the immigrant vote before he opens his mouth.
The other candidates have to start backing each other when they realize they can't win, Had Chabot and a few other dummy's not held out for a miracle last year and did some backing... Bill Smith may have been be the new Mayor.

Oh, and the Hitman aren't even close to "pro" hockey

[FireGilbert]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

I agree that Nenshi is full of himself and even full of s*** most of the time but fact is he will be hard to beat, he has 80% of the immigrant vote before he opens his mouth.
The other candidates have to start backing each other when they realize they can't win, Had Chabot and a few other dummy's not held out for a miracle last year and did some backing... Bill Smith may have been be the new Mayor.

Oh, and the Hitman aren't even close to "pro" hockey

Let me guess, your next talking point will be about how Nenshi hates hockey and would only support building a cricket stadium.