The trials and tribulations of Glen Gulutzan

[Philly06Cup]

I'm saying people generally don't want to support this team because they are mediocre and losing. That's natural. Why invest in a team that loses. It's natural to be a bandwagoner that only supports the team when its winning. This 'boring' narrative is a way to make you feel better about not following the team.

If the Flames were boring and winning, no one would bat an eyelash. That's been proven in the past. It's all about winning.

[delayedreflex]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Personally I don't find this team that "boring" but can see others concerns with this team.

I think in some ways a big part of that is we have a boring roster, especially at forward. So playing a more structured style just magnifies that.

We have some really good puck moving d-men (Hamilton, Gio, Brodie) but nobody who is purely an electric offensive d-man that is going to wow you with end to end rush after end to end rush (ie. Karlsson, Klingberg, Burns, Gostisbehere).

We have some good forwards but overall they are pretty boring, and also not the most fleet of foot.

Gaudreau & Tkachuk (+Bennett when he's "Good Bennett") are entertaining but really that's it.

Ferland & Monahan play more of a simple but effective game and neither play that quick and "top 6 Ferland" doesn't play as physical.

Backlund & Frolik are skilled but play more of a 200ft cycle game than an electric game.

Jankowski shows flashes but for the most part plays a pretty boring game.

Then outside of that it's a whole bunch of "meh" - Stajan, Brouwer, Hathaway, Lazar, and the rest of the mish mash that makes up our bottom 6 aren't exciting.

They aren't young top prospects that you are excited to see each night, they mostly are veterans that play "no event" games where they don't score or get scored on.

Overall at forward we don't have a ton of speed, don't have a ton of grit, and have a bunch of guys who play more of a "simple but effective game" (Gaudreau, Tkachuk, "Good Bennett" being the exceptions).

At defense is where the gap is because I feel like that group could play a more exciting game than they do now but considering they tend to bleed chances when they play that way I get why they have reigned them in a bit.

Do you think the rosters of say, Vegas or Toronto are filled with more exciting players than Calgary? Toronto does have a more talented set of forwards but has a much less impressive looking D corps, while Vegas is basically a team full of 2nd liners, but based on admittedly limited viewings I would say both of these teams play an exciting brand of hockey. The mention of Flames hockey under Hartley is another good example (maybe not as successful of a style, but very exciting, particularly in 2014-2015)

[Calgary4LIfe]

Personally I find exciting teams and successful teams to not have much of a correlation.

Want a recent example? Look at the Penguins under Johnston and Sullivan. Which was the more 'boring' team?

The boring Mike Johnston team had naysayers saying that the Pens were too top-heavy and had to play a structured system to balance it. When that started failing, people thought that trading Malkin was something that didn't just need to happen, but most assuredly would happen.

Out goes Johnston, in comes Sullivan, and suddenly the Pens are playing a much more up-temp and suitable system to their composition.

I find very structured or rigid systems are more for teams that are less skilled and slow, especially when the defencemen are not proficient puck movers. Keep them moving as a 5 man unit and the passes are not only shorter, but the forwards are closer in case the puck gets turned over.

The Flames, IMO, have the horses to play a more up-tempo aggressive system. Stone is without a doubt the worst puck-mover on the team, and even he can move the puck decently.

I firmly believe there are two considerations and two considerations ONLY to what constitutes 'the best system' in the NHL:

1) What your team is composed of - tailor a specific system to make use of the strengths and limit the weaknesses on the roster

2) How capable a coach is of deploying the system and getting the players to play it

A coach like Darryl doesn't use complicated systems. He is just a task-master and motivator with a penchant for playing it safe. His teams go through the wall for him until they simply have shattered all the bones in their head, and then it is over.

Hartley SEEMS to be too much of a task-master, but his system was offence oriented by deploying a counter-attack that relied on passive defensive positioning and an attempt to clog up every single lane imaginable, and running the wingers a bit ragged coming back hard on defence and then skating hard for offence (which is why he demanded players get fit).

Brian Sutter was a task-master but overly committed to defence. Demanded everything up the wall, demanded everything offensive be generated off the cycle. This was his system, and it didn't matter what the composition of the team seemed to be. Team was either not able or not willing to play that system consistently (your guess is as good as mine - and I am guessing both).

Keenan allowed for offensive creativity... and I am not sure what else. Wasn't much of a task-master while he was here, and certainly didn't actually coach all that much sitting in the stands watching practice and not having the PP practice. His system seemed to revolve around "the highest paid players get more ice time, and everyone just do your thing".

I have no idea if Playfair was a solid systems guy (I think he was), but the team didn't respect him and he couldn't ever be that task-master.

What I see is a constant Yo-Yo on this team that burns through too many good years of having a decent team.

Sutter - great coach - defensive.
Playfair - not respected - waste of a season
Keenan - offensively 'fine', didn't really coach much
Brent Sutter - defensively over-committed, poor task-master/systems
Hartley - Offensively a god, system designed specifically for team, cracked too many heads
Gulutzan - offensively challenged (at least at production), defensively not very strong except for spurts

It seems that with the Flames hiring/firing of coaches, they get a guy that is somewhat the opposite of the previous guy, instead of just getting another guy to get them to play the same type of hockey and create that lasting culture.

But hey, the Pens made that big adjustment and won two cups in a row (and counting). It just seems like huge swings to me at times, and then a guy gets prematurely (arguably) fired and the pendulum swings so far the other way you end up starting from scratch instead of building on the existing foundation.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Philly06Cup

I'm saying people generally don't want to support this team because they are mediocre and losing. That's natural. Why invest in a team that loses. It's natural to be a bandwagoner that only supports the team when its winning. This 'boring' narrative is a way to make you feel better about not following the team.

If the Flames were boring and winning, no one would bat an eyelash. That's been proven in the past. It's all about winning.

The stye of play is not that exciting, and many posters have been saying that for a long time. These posters wouldn't be posting on a Flames message board if they didn't follow the team on a regular basis. Bandwagoners generally don't do that. These posters probably went through the "young guns" era of hockey too, and have stuck by the team through every iteration, good or bad. You don't have to jump for joy about every element of the team in order to be a supporter of the team.

Also, its pretty rich that a flyers fan is telling Flames fans how to feel about their team.

[Psytic]

Originally Posted by Philly06Cup

I'm saying people generally don't want to support this team because they are mediocre and losing. That's natural. Why invest in a team that loses. It's natural to be a bandwagoner that only supports the team when its winning. This 'boring' narrative is a way to make you feel better about not following the team.

If the Flames were boring and winning, no one would bat an eyelash. That's been proven in the past. It's all about winning.

AV or Quenville and a few change of scenery trades for more speed or Stone or Gallagher and i'm happy again. Team is legit boring to watch. I doubt we have ANY bandwagon fans. Why would they choose the Flames? We haven't even had a 100 point season in 12 years. If anyone is still here post 2004 its because they are real fans. Real band wagoners choose Vegas. Personally I'm jealous of their speed and hustle though if i'm being honest, and that is why so many miss Hartley. He was not a good coach but the team actually played with some jam and speed.

[GullFoss]

Has anyone looked at the last five games and thought to themselves, "this team looks like its on the cusp of figuring their #### out"?

I know I've been one of the biggest GG detractors all season, but it honestly seems like there has been a positive shift with this team in the past 15 games and its really accelerated into something of significance the past five to nine games or so, to the point that the team is actually consistently passing my eye test for the first time since GG has coached.

- better offensive cycle
- more activation of defensemen
- fourth line is contributing
- more attention to detail on the PK
- better bench management
- Bennett emergence
- Less unforced errors by defensemen
- PP looks only slightly sub-par

I know the flames look all but out the playoffs...but Im actually starting to think they've finally emerged.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Philly06Cup

I'm saying people generally don't want to support this team because they are mediocre and losing. That's natural. Why invest in a team that loses. It's natural to be a bandwagoner that only supports the team when its winning. This 'boring' narrative is a way to make you feel better about not following the team.

If the Flames were boring and winning, no one would bat an eyelash. That's been proven in the past. It's all about winning.

I think the team has better players now than when Hartley was coach, and a couple more lovable players now, but they're still boring in comparison. The Hartley-coached group weren't a great team, but they were exciting and that was fun. The Sutter coached group weren't always great, but they were tough and that was fun. GGs group is not great, and they are mechanical and that is boring.

Hopefully with a new coach they can be both better at hockey and more entertaining. I think there's a pretty good chance that could happen.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I think the team has better players now than when Hartley was coach, and a couple more lovable players now, but they're still boring in comparison.

For sure!

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

The Hartley-coached group weren't a great team, but they were exciting and that was fun.

Losses didn't seem to bother me as much and we never seemed to loose to the Oilers

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

The Sutter coached group weren't always great, but they were tough and that was fun.

Half of the Minnesota Wild team would have been crushed and Eric Stall would have spent a week eating threw a straw if they slashed Johnny 26 times under Sutters watch

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

GGs group is not great, and they are mechanical and that is boring.

Group is fine, coaching sucks, half of CP fans could do an equal if not better job.

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Hopefully with a new coach they can be both better at hockey and more entertaining. I think there's a pretty good chance that could happen.

One can hope/dream/pray

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by gargamel

Nice win tonight. GG still needs to go.

He won't though, not even if we miss the dance. I think this is Tre's guy and rather than have the coaching carousel they will show patience with him.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

I'm happy we won, but I just don't like the way the Flames played against the Oilers in the third. We had a 1-0 lead and we completely stopped forecheckeing that dumpster fire of a defence. We invited McDavid to play half the third period and just rush up the ice as much as he wants.

McDavid looks all world against the Flames because GG refuses to adjust to the Oilers. There is a reason they are bottom 5 in the league but seem to have our number.

McDavid looks all world against everybody because he is Connor McDavid. I think the Flames did a pretty good job against him.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Philly06Cup

I'm saying people generally don't want to support this team because they are mediocre and losing. That's natural. Why invest in a team that loses. It's natural to be a bandwagoner that only supports the team when its winning. This 'boring' narrative is a way to make you feel better about not following the team.

If the Flames were boring and winning, no one would bat an eyelash. That's been proven in the past. It's all about winning.

That goes without saying. A boring style is easier to swallow if it is successful.

Gulutzan's style is not. It is boring. It is plodding. It is predictable, and it fails. From an entertainment value for $ spent perspective, the last two years have been the worst I've experienced as a paying customer since the young guns days.

[kukkudo]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

He won't though, not even if we miss the dance. I think this is Tre's guy and rather than have the coaching carousel they will show patience with him.

I doubt Treliving is going to take the risk of keep GG for another year if they miss the playoffs. If an AV or Tortz or even JQ pop up in the market he will try everything to get one of those guys as they are a clear upgrade moving forward.

[Ryan Coke]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

He won't though, not even if we miss the dance. I think this is Tre's guy and rather than have the coaching carousel they will show patience with him.

I believe Treliving is smarter than that. I will be stunned and disappointed if Treliving decides to put his own job in jeopardy by bringing Gulutzan back.

He has been patient with him, and it hasn’t paid off.

[Toonage]

Hurts me to say it but I'm starting to agree with people who think GG will be back if the team makes a run to the playoffs. They'll stick with him and try to beef up their offense this summer. Miss, and he's fired.

So really it looks like this to me.
Miss the playoffs and I get what i want. Coach is fired.
Make the playoffs and I get what I want in the short term. Playoffs. Long term? More of the same probably.

[kukkudo]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Hurts me to say it but I'm starting to agree with people who think GG will be back if the team makes a run to the playoffs. They'll stick with him and try to beef up their offense this summer. Miss, and he's fired.

So really it looks like this to me.
Miss the playoffs and I get what i want. Coach is fired.
Make the playoffs and I get what I want in the short term. Playoffs. Long term? More of the same probably.

Depends if GG brings them into the playoffs and they win a round that would be pretty good. Now if they get swept thats a different story. But before all that they need to make that playoffs which seems unlikely without any OOT help.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

He won't though, not even if we miss the dance. I think this is Tre's guy and rather than have the coaching carousel they will show patience with him.

And if this is true, then Treliving would have to go as well. If he were to be unable to set his ego aside for the good of the team, then he would become a detriment to it.

[colbym72]

Originally Posted by Ryan Coke

I believe Treliving is smarter than that. I will be stunned and disappointed if Treliving decides to put his own job in jeopardy by bringing Gulutzan back.

He has been patient with him, and it hasn’t paid off.

Patient does not equal 1.75 years. Patient equals what Chevy has done with Maurice. That worked out when the roster rounded out. This bottom six isn't contender ready

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by colbym72

Patient does not equal 1.75 years. Patient equals what Chevy has done with Maurice. That worked out when the roster rounded out. This bottom six isn't contender ready

This is how I feel about our team. I'm really not convinced the coaching is the issue. Fans in Winnipeg were calling for Maurice to be fired exactly the way fans in Calgary are calling for GG to be fired. I think patience will pay off in the end - we need some players to mature, we need Treliving to add to our forward depth and then I think we'll be ready to contend.

We have the defensive depth to potentially add some good pieces up front, similar to Nashville using Jones to add Johansen.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by VilleN

This is how I feel about our team. I'm really not convinced the coaching is the issue. Fans in Winnipeg were calling for Maurice to be fired exactly the way fans in Calgary are calling for GG to be fired. I think patience will pay off in the end - we need some players to mature, we need Treliving to add to our forward depth and then I think we'll be ready to contend.

We have the defensive depth to potentially add some good pieces up front, similar to Nashville using Jones to add Johansen.

I think the decision to keep or fire him hinges on a few key pieces
- Do they make the playoffs or not
- What happens in the playoffs

Those are the obvious ones

Looking deeper the argument, for me, to dismiss him largely would be based on
- Inability to address issues with special teams for the entire year
- Player utilization (specific roles, ice time, powerplay set up, etc)

Those are the two elements that form the basis for a position to remove him.

[kukkudo]

Originally Posted by colbym72

Patient does not equal 1.75 years. Patient equals what Chevy has done with Maurice. That worked out when the roster rounded out. This bottom six isn't contender ready

Difference between Chevy and Treliving one GM didn't go out and trade a whole bunch of picks away and put his job at risk for next season. Treliving knows next season they cannot afford to miss the playoffs otherwise he most likely is out of a job.

He goes with a Veteran coach this summer.