Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Or we could use said funds to actually eliminate homelessness, which is something that was supposed to have happened by Jan. 29 of this year. It's only down about 11% since the peak in 2008.

http://www.macleans.ca/news/why-calg...uable-failure/

Of course, there are a million things that could use funding.

what if you housed the homeless in calgaryMEXT

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

If everyone is so good with paying an extra $100 in property taxes, then City should start increasing rates. The quality of available senior services, for example, would really see an uptick with an infusion of extra funds.

Using the money so Flames can play in a nicer arena? That can’t be a serious question can it?

Where is that number from? It's more than I saw.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

They don't want to own it, just lease it. That's the same as the present situation. However, the lease they would take on puts pretty much all risk on the lessee, CSEC. For example, CSEC had to cover all the cleanup after the flood. CSEC would be liable for any accidents in the premises. CSEC covers all the maintenance, utilities, security, etc. It's a triple net lease.

That’s what I meant, the CSEC wants the city to own it, even though for all practical purposes the CSEC reaps all the benefits of the building.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Wormius

That’s what I meant, the CSEC wants the city to own it, even though for all practical purposes the CSEC reaps all the benefits of the building.

It's the current deal. But like I said, they don't escape all the obligations either. Aside from the sweet deal on rent/taxes, they have all the obligations of an owner.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Where is that number from? It's more than I saw.

From my head. I mean it all depends on how much Flames want the city to contribute, but there are only so many taxpayers in the city.

Does it really matter whether it is $2 or $2000?

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

what if you housed the homeless in calgaryMEXT

That would have to get built first, which would be an act of god at this point

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

From my head. I mean it all depends on how much Flames want the city to contribute, but there are only so many taxpayers in the city.

Does it really matter whether it is $2 or $2000?

Of course it matters.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Of course it matters.

Why?

[delayedreflex]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Why?

Median property tax paid by Calgary residents in 2017 was $1823. You don't think it matters if your property tax goes up by 0.1% vs 110%? Even for $5 vs $100 per year, that is a 20x difference.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by delayedreflex

Median property tax paid by Calgary residents in 2017 was $1823. You don't think it matters if your property tax goes up by 0.1% vs 110%? Even for $5 vs $100 per year, that is a 20x difference.

So why shouldn't the city raise property taxes by $5 to build more bus shelters. Have a stronger police department. Provide fire department better equipment. Provide more services to the poor, elderly and sick?

It's only $5.

[taco.vidal]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

So why shouldn't the city raise property taxes by $5 to build more bus shelters. Have a stronger police department. Provide fire department better equipment. Provide more services to the poor, elderly and sick?

It's only $5.

Let the Flames self-fund with a ticket tax on all tickets in the new arena. $5 per ticket per event for the next 20 years.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by taco.vidal

Let the Flames self-fund with a ticket tax on all tickets in the new arena. $5 per ticket per event for the next 20 years.

Sacrilege. THat's not the deal the Oilers received.

[Flamenspiel]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

If your taxes go up, those services would presumably remain.

I don't think you understand.

[Senator Clay Davis]

It's worth remembering there are (at least) three teams who are deeply underwater financially right now, with virtually no reason, short of the league rigging a dynasty for them, to think they won't continue to be financial black holes. Even playing in the Dome, those owners would break even or even make money, as opposed to their current situations of bleeding cash. So even if Murray could pull off a sale, there are owners who would gladly leave their failing markets for this one, especially if the only cost is the relocation fee. Taking out being propped up by government subsidies, the Coyotes have almost certainly lost at least $250 million in the last decade. Why wouldn't Barroway pay that as a relocation fee to, you know, actually have a shot at making some money?

So even if this goes all the way, what happens when Barroway or Viola tell Gary "Well we're in POS, hopeless markets, and there's an open market that, even in an old building, we will do far better financially, so yeah if you're letting them go either let us take their place, or compensate us bigly". It also would probably be, relatively speaking, cheap as #### to buy one of those teams and move them here, so a local buyer can scoop them up for a bargain price, even factoring in the relocation fee. The layers of complexity to this thing if it does go all the way is part of why it's unlikely to go all the way. Bettman is hoping we fall for the fear mongering, because if we don't he may play himself really badly, and turn a bad situation for the Flames into a catastrophic situation for the league as a whole.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

A new arena is required every what, 30 to 40 years?

Says who? Why not 50?

Why haven't the Flames been planning for this for the last...20+years?

I know it'll never happen, because it's already complicated, and all of the parties currently involved will be dead or wearing depends by the time it matters, but I'd love it if whatever deal we end up with also addresses the next deal (40-50 years from now)...a ticket tax for this building, and a ticket tax for the next one (as users should have already been paying now).

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

I bet you NHL hockey is more important to Canadians than the Winter Olympics. By a long shot too.

I think you'd be surprised at how many Canadians care very little to none about either.

Those people derive pretty much zero benefit from NHL hockey. Folks in and around Vancouver may get some benefit from the Canada Line, etc. I bet the average Calgarian derives a little more benefit from the legacies of '88 than the Flames (though I'll acknowledge it's up for debate, and even more debatable whether gov't ROI could have been even more effective without either catalyst)

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

I don't think you understand.

I do. If those services cost money, and the city pays for an arena, something gets cut. But if taxes are increased to make up the cost services aren't cut.

Now if he's saying he wants more services, using money otherwise going to the arena, and wants to pay higher taxes, that's different.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Why?

Because, to use an extreme example, if taxes go up by a penny, it makes no practical difference to anyone, whereas if they go up by $100000 it sure does.

I'm sure there are some who say "not a penny", but that's a pretty unrealistic position.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Because, to use an extreme example, if taxes go up by a penny, it makes no practical difference to anyone, whereas if they go up by $100000 it sure does.

I'm sure there are some who say "not a penny", but that's a pretty unrealistic position.

I think you need to explain why this money should go to private enterprise vs. Public services. Unless you believe taxpayers are so flush with with cash and the City of Calgary provides more public services than anyone could expect.

The argument that it’s not much money is just an awful one.

[CorbeauNoir]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Because, to use an extreme example, if taxes go up by a penny, it makes no practical difference to anyone, whereas if they go up by $100000 it sure does.

I'm sure there are some who say "not a penny", but that's a pretty unrealistic position.

So death by a thousand papercuts.

[kermitology]

So, why are they waiting if this isn’t just some fear mongering tactic?

What reason do the Flames have to stay any longer since they’re not going to talk about an arena, and they’re just playing it out?

The most infuriating part of all of this is the nonsensical petulant attitude displayed by the Flames. They’re losing me as a fan, and I was so hardcore, I was for years a writer for this site. Why are they doing this?

For the record, after transplant99 asked me if I would keep my season tickets, and I said I wouldn’t go back next year.. well, I went to one game, then sold all of my tickets.