Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[GGG]

We are still at least 5 years away from the Flames ultimatum. The goal over the next 5 years is to build fear. They are doing a much better job of that now. All of the posturing leads to the public being in their favour as the fear gets ratcheted up. The public message is the Flames aren't negotiating but if the city wants to change the offer than they will sit down and until then they will do their best to turn a profit and ice a competitive team.

That messaging is perfect in this interim phase between pressure points. The next pressure point is the Olympic decision which would put the flames in a position to be a partner. Until an Olympic decisions there is no point in any negotiations. After the Olympic decision is made assuming we don't bid we will see pressure ramping up in the period before the election starts to take one last shot at influencing council.

If that new council in 2021 is not Arena friendly the Flames will move.

Until then we will get a steady trickle of fear lingering out of the the controlled media.

[mikeecho]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Do you really mean that? Do you really, really, really mean that? I don't think you do because if you did you wouldn't be a regular poster here. Ask Jets fans what it's like to not have a team. I know a lot of fans like to talk tough like this but I think a lot of fans with this attitude would be very, very sorry if they moved. I just saw this play out on Raiders forums and there are still threads where the Oakland fans are livid even after it's been finalized. Many never thought it would happen and the reality hits really, really hard.

I’m a born and raised Winnipegger who lived there when the Jets left. At the time, it hurt but after the initial sting wore off, I thought the city got over it after about a year or so. I knew the “Save Our Jets” guy that was all over it until they returned but it honestly felt like he was one of just a handful that never got over it. Most people I know moved on pretty quickly with more free time and disposable income. In a weird way, Winnipeg got better after the Jets left.

[Erick Estrada]

Your opinion is vastly different than a lot of Winnipegers I have talked to and dealt with in business.

[nik-]

My anecdotes trump your anecdotes!

[getbak]

Originally Posted by TheSpecialist

Just to expand on what was said. Eric Francis thinks that the most likely destination is Houston and that Murray Edwards won't have any issues selling the team for around $650 million if he doesn't like what the city of Calgary is offering for an arena deal. He is not the kind of guy that would go crawling back to the city like the mayor might expect especially with the current state of the economy.

That's where the idea falls apart in my mind.

Sure, an offer of $650 million is something the Flames owners would have to take seriously. Then, the league tacks on a $150 million relocation fee. Does Tilman Fertitta really want an NHL team in the Toyota Center badly enough to drop $800 million for the opportunity?

Also, if you're Andrew Barroway, and you've purchased the Coyotes at a value of $300 million, aren't you getting on the phone with Fertitta and offering to sell him your team for a lot less than whatever CSEC are asking for?


It's one thing to be frustrated that you're not getting everything you wanted, but I can't see the Flames owners getting into a price war with the Coyotes just to spite city council.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by getbak

That's where the idea falls apart in my mind.

Sure, an offer of $650 million is something the Flames owners would have to take seriously. Then, the league tacks on a $150 million relocation fee. Does Tilman Fertitta really want an NHL team in the Toyota Center badly enough to drop $800 million for the opportunity?

Also, if you're Andrew Barroway, and you've purchased the Coyotes at a value of $300 million, aren't you getting on the phone with Fertitta and offering to sell him your team for a lot less than whatever CSEC are asking for?


It's one thing to be frustrated that you're not getting everything you wanted, but I can't see the Flames owners getting into a price war with the Coyotes just to spite city council.

The Coyotes are always going to be the wildcard because of their volatility and I don't know if Barroway looking for investors is a good or bad thing for that franchise long term. I would assume that Francis has heard some information but remember he's the guy that thought Boudreau to the Flames was a near certainty.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by mikeecho

I’m a born and raised Winnipegger who lived there when the Jets left. At the time, it hurt but after the initial sting wore off, I thought the city got over it after about a year or so. I knew the “Save Our Jets” guy that was all over it until they returned but it honestly felt like he was one of just a handful that never got over it. Most people I know moved on pretty quickly with more free time and disposable income. In a weird way, Winnipeg got better after the Jets left.

Are you possibly projecting your own feelings a bit? I honestly have only ever heard the opposite, and from a lot of people.

They were devastated when they left, didn't really get over it, and starting getting absolutely giddy when the first leaks of a possible return came out, and then the city absolutely exploded with a reignited passion and more vibrancy with an NHL team coming back.

[Toonage]

No one ever worries about poor Hartford.

[hansmoleman]

For everyone that hates the thought of public money to the arena, how much worse would you hate an internal salary cap for the next ten years to make up those bucks?

If you’re a die hard fan of this team like I assume most are on the forum, I don’t see how you don’t want this thing built.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by hansmoleman

For everyone that hates the thought of public money to the arena, how much worse would you hate an internal salary cap for the next ten years to make up those bucks?

If you’re a die hard fan of this team like I assume most are on the forum, I don’t see how you don’t want this thing built.

I mean, it's been explained numerous times. Maybe take a stroll back through this thread or the many others.

Please don't play the "real fans" cards here. It's a weak ass angle.

[stone hands]

Originally Posted by hansmoleman

For everyone that hates the thought of public money to the arena, how much worse would you hate an internal salary cap for the next ten years to make up those bucks?

If you’re a die hard fan of this team like I assume most are on the forum, I don’t see how you don’t want this thing built.

I'm as pretty die hard as it gets, being a sth

I don't want it to get built with tax dollars because there is a plethora of research that shows cities always lose in arena deals and I'm not in the business of allocating 500+ million dollars of public infrastructure money as a subsidy for the multiple billionaire owners so their hobby can make them even more money. Sorry

[Kidder]

I’m gonna take the opinion of the born and raised Winnipegger who was living in the city when the franchise left over the guy who claims to have a pulse on Winnipeg, pulse on the Oakland Raiders and a pulse on Flames ownership and the NHL.

Your omnipresence is outstanding.

[DiracSpike]

All the people who proclaim to not care about the team leaving sure post a lot about how much they don't care about the team leaving.

There's something to this. Attacks on Francis or machiavellian claims about ownership are just deflections. The owners of this team have made 10X their initial investment, selling the team makes them a lot of money, removes the headache of trying to find a venue for their barely profitable franchise, and cashes out their share when a lot of economists believe that pro sports in general has peaked. If I was an owner that's what I'd be clamoring for. Calgary's love of hockey as a sport isn't going to matter very much when a Houston billionaire just sees a team that will fill nights at his arena.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

All the people who proclaim to not care about the team leaving sure post a lot about how much they don't care about the team leaving.

There's something to this. Attacks on Francis or machiavellian claims about ownership are just deflections. The owners of this team have made 10X their initial investment, selling the team makes them a lot of money, removes the headache of trying to find a venue for their barely profitable franchise, and cashes out their share when a lot of economists believe that pro sports in general has peaked. If I was an owner that's what I'd be clamoring for. Calgary's love of hockey as a sport isn't going to matter very much when a Houston billionaire just sees a team that will fill nights at his arena.

Then so be it. I don't know how I'll possibly fill 82 nights a year if I'm not watching a mediocre franchise bubble team it up for another 25 years.

In a way it would be freeing.

[Kidder]

So is the underlying message here to rally the troops to pony up for the ownership who cares solely about profits and not the fans?

Francis has a motive here as an owner schill. What are you fear mongers here advocating for?

[hansmoleman]

Originally Posted by nik-

I mean, it's been explained numerous times. Maybe take a stroll back through this thread or the many others.

Please don't play the "real fans" cards here. It's a weak ass angle.

Haven’t read the other thread and don’t plan on it.

Do you not use a computer because bill gates gets richer every time you buy one? Of course these owners want to make money, that’s how they got to be owning a friggin hockey team. If the Flames leave I will blame guys like you and Nenshi.

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by nik-

Then so be it. I don't know how I'll possibly fill 82 nights a year if I'm not watching a mediocre franchise bubble team it up for another 25 years.

In a way it would be freeing.

That's a valid opinion to have, and pretty defensible IMO. As long as you don't get your back up when people point out that it is becoming increasingly likely that the team will move.

Kidder So is the underlying message here to rally the troops to pony up for the ownership who cares solely about profits and not the fans?

Francis has a motive here as an owner schill. What are you fear mongers here advocating for?

Like this guy. I'm not advocating for anything other than people to see reality that this team will move without a new arena. And it doesn't have anything to do with your perception that ownership is this big bad group of rich people who spit on the common man, or whatever it is you're on about. Just cold hard economic reality.

[Locke]

Once again, I think we have to look at the track record to determine how this will likely go.

Whenever anyone brings up 'Relocation' I dont think they remember all the other cases where a team was moved.

No team has ever been moved unless it was a failing team.

Look at a case like Edmonton. Did they move the team? No, they forced a sale to a local owner who would keep the team in Edmonton.

Look at Phoenix, I dont even know who owns them anymore but the League was their custodian for a while. Didnt move the team, found a local owner.

I think ownership in Tampa has been a bit of a shuffle, as with Carolina and Florida.

The League's MO is to keep the team rooted where it is and if the current owner is unhappy or has to sell they start by looking at other potential local owners and usually try and make sure the owner commits to keeping the team in its current City.

This is why Relocation threats ring hollow.

If the Flames come to the conclusion that they simply cannot operate in Calgary anymore the League's Modus Operandi is to find someone who can, rather than moving the team.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by hansmoleman

Haven’t read the other thread and don’t plan on it.

Do you not use a computer because bill gates gets richer every time you buy one? Of course these owners want to make money, that’s how they got to be owning a friggin hockey team. If the Flames leave I will blame guys like you and Nenshi.

As crushing as your blame will be, I'm sure I'll survive.

[Corral]

How many times does it have to be said that Rogers has an informal veto on any move out of Canada by an NHL franchise. If Bettman and his buddies like their TV billions, they will do as Rogers tells them.

And who cares what Francis says on 630 CHED? Why is he even speaking with them?