[PGT] The Flames didn't win

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Red

Laine would probably be a 15 goal guy here because he wouldn't be allowed to play his off-side on the PP under coach Gulutzan.

No, he might be closer to 50 with Gaudreau and more than 16 minutes of ice time. Guy has an absolute rocket and anyone who has watched him play would know that. If the system was so bad, then Gaudreau wouldn't be on pace for 90+ points, Monahan at 30, Ferland at 20 and Tkachuk at 24.

Blaming the system for a lack of finishing is such a cop out answer. It's like when people here were blaming Sigalet and trying to get him fired because Elliott was stinking it up here. Then Elliott showed us his real side in the playoffs and Smith has showed up to prove what actually good goaltending looks like.

Peter Loubardias called it right the other day when he said that this city and fanbase gets too down on coaching when this team isn't winning, more so then any other fanbase he's seen. I'm in total agreement with him. I've seen 11 or 12 coaches go through this franchise since I've been a fan and no coaching change has ever turned us into a juggernaut of a team.

[automaton 3]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Just like when the Flames catch the opposition on a line change and elect to throw the puck backwards to the D instead of taking the zone.

Yep. And then a few east-west D to D passes just to be sure the other side is all set up.

Flames then move slowly up the ice. Player trying to cross the blue line is challenged and double-teamed. More often then not turnover and it goes the other way, or puck dumped in the corner, or a blind pass.

So tired of this. The roster is not being used to its strengths. Flames have D that can skate that are being used as plow horses.

Bring on the new coaching staff. Feels like such a wasted season.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I would agree that CF% isn't everything. I'm not even a corsi or advanced stats guy, but the Flames internal statistician counted 27 scoring chances for the Flames yesterday. That's how many total shots on goal the Isles had. The Islanders also luckily scored 3 goals and while having just 3 scoring chances.

It could be just as simple as this team doesn't have the shooters to get it done. I mean are we really surprised? Who among the forward group has a cannon of a shot? Ferland? He has 1 goal in 23 games. Frolik? He's got a muffin. Bennett? Muffin. Brouwer? Muffin. We have guys who work hard and generate a lot of shots, but their actually ability to finish is below average.

Most guys in the NHL by your definition have a muffin. The Tyler Seguins and Patrik Laines are the exceptions. Here's a look at our shot/goal distribution:

The Flames are 10th in the league in goals scored on wrist shots. They are 7th in league in wrist shots taken. So your muffin argument, as it pertains to wristers, seems pretty off.

The Flames are 27th in the league in goals scored on tips. They are fourth in the league in tipped shots. So it seems that this is an area of weakness for this team. And I think it's clear why - we don't attempt backdoor tips, they're all frontdoor prayers.

The Flames 29th in the league in goals scored on slap shots. They are 15th in the league in slap shots taken. One of the biggest criticisms of our power play is the lack of one-timers from the off-wing. So most of our slap shots are probably coming from Brodie, Giordano, Stone rather than forwards.

The Flames are 15th in the league in goals scored on deflections. They are 24th in the league in deflection shots.

The Flames are 16th in the league in goals scored on backhands. They are eighth in the league in backhand shots.

The Flames are 29th in the league in goals scored on snap shots. They are 15th in the league in snap shots taken.

It's pretty clear that certain type of goals are being executed as one might expect (Backhands, Wrist Shots, Lucky Deflections) while certain other type of goals are not (Snap Shots, Tips, and Slap Shots).

Now let's go back two seasons to the same numbers from the final year of the pre Gulutzan era:

3rd in wristshot goals / 6th in wrist shots.
3rd in tip goals / 12th in tip shots
17th in backhand goals / 19th in backhand shots.
30th in slap shot goals / 30th in slap shots.
24th in snap shot goals / 18th in snap shots.
15th in deflection goals / 21st in deflections.

Not sure what conclusion to draw, but again this was a team that scored primarily on wrist shots and wasn't "lacking finish" in any real sense other than rarely attempting slap shots.

[colbym72]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

No, he might be closer to 50 with Gaudreau and more than 16 minutes of ice time. Guy has an absolute rocket and anyone who has watched him play would know that. If the system was so bad, then Gaudreau wouldn't be on pace for 90+ points, Monahan at 30, Ferland at 20 and Tkachuk at 24.

Blaming the system for a lack of finishing is such a cop out answer. It's like when people here were blaming Sigalet and trying to get him fired because Elliott was stinking it up here. Then Elliott showed us his real side in the playoffs and Smith has showed up to prove what actually good goaltending looks like.

Peter Loubardias called it right the other day when he said that this city and fanbase gets too down on coaching when this team isn't winning, more so then any other fanbase he's seen. I'm in total agreement with him. I've seen 11 or 12 coaches go through this franchise since I've been a fan and no coaching change has ever turned us into a juggernaut of a team.

Couldn't agree more with your post. These are hockey players. They know what it takes to score goals and its their responsibility to finish chances. They are one of the league leaders in scoring chances. That is on them to finish the chances. The forward group was overrated and needs to be improved upon.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by jayswin

So true. Like someone else mentioned there's nothing more frustrating than seeing a Flames star get a cross ice pass that could be one timed in, where instead they have to stop it to turn their body towards the net because our ridiculously rigid policy on player sides.

But hey, advanced stats tells us a high danger shot is a high danger shot!

Our entire right side was made up of left shot right wingers for a part of the season when we had Ferland, Frolik and Jagr. I didn't see anyone one timers here. The real answer might be that these guys don't have a talent to do so. I mean to be fair to these guys though, Jagr isn't even in the league anymore and Ferland was in the bottom 6 last season and Frolik is probably a natural 3rd liner anyway.

Laine is probably the best sniper in the game today. Better than Ovechkin at this point in their respective careers. Laine would be a perennial 50 goal scorer on this team.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Most guys in the NHL by your definition have a muffin. The Tyler Seguins and Patrik Laines are the exceptions. Here's a look at our shot/goal distribution:

The Flames are 10th in the league in goals scored on wrist shots. They are 7th in league in wrist shots taken. So your muffin argument, as it pertains to wristers, seems pretty off.

The Flames are 27th in the league in goals scored on tips. They are fourth in the league in tipped shots. So it seems that this is an area of weakness for this team. And I think it's clear why - we don't attempt backdoor tips, they're all frontdoor prayers.

The Flames 29th in the league in goals scored on slap shots. They are 15th in the league in slap shots taken. One of the biggest criticisms of our power play is the lack of one-timers from the off-wing. So most of our slap shots are probably coming from Brodie, Giordano, Stone rather than forwards.

The Flames are 15th in the league in goals scored on deflections. They are 24th in the league in deflection shots.

The Flames are 16th in the league in goals scored on backhands. They are eighth in the league in backhand shots.

The Flames are 29th in the league in goals scored on snap shots. They are 15th in the league in snap shots taken.

It's pretty clear that certain type of goals are being executed as one might expect (Backhands, Wrist Shots, Lucky Deflections) while certain other type of goals are not (Snap Shots, Tips, and Slap Shots).

Now let's go back two seasons to the same numbers from the final year of the pre Gulutzan era:

3rd in wristshot goals / 6th in wrist shots.
3rd in tip goals / 12th in tip shots
17th in backhand goals / 19th in backhand shots.
30th in slap shot goals / 30th in slap shots.
24th in snap shot goals / 18th in snap shots.
15th in deflection goals / 21st in deflections.

Not sure what conclusion to draw, but again this was a team that scored primarily on wrist shots and wasn't "lacking finish" in any real sense other than rarely attempting slap shots.

This team's lack of finish comes from the fact they put up some of the highest shot totals in the league, on goal (#7) and in total attempts (#3). Yet they're one of the lowest scoring teams in the league (#19). Pre-Gulutzan we finished 15-16 with 231 total goals scored, last season we had 226 and this season we're on pace for 231 this season.

We've stayed consistent in the goals department and based on the volume of shots taken and from the eye test, this team lacks finishers. If you watch the Jets, Leafs or Lightning at all, you'd think the samething as me. Those other teams have multiple players with absolute bombs, we don't.

[Flamenspiel]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

This team's lack of finish comes from the fact they put up some of the highest shot totals in the league, on goal (#7) and in total attempts (#3). Yet they're one of the lowest scoring teams in the league (#19). Pre-Gulutzan we finished 15-16 with 231 total goals scored, last season we had 226 and this season we're on pace for 231 this season.

We've stayed consistent in the goals department and based on the volume of shots taken and from the eye test, this team lacks finishers. If you watch the Jets, Leafs or Lightning at all, you'd think the samething as me. Those other teams have multiple players with absolute bombs, we don't.

I think that could be right to a certain extent, but its not just about shooting, generally they lack aggression around the net. Other then MT, i don't see the Flames agitating the goalie enough. I'd like to see the other goalie getting banged around instead of Smitty. That being said even if the Flames score three last night they lose the game, clearly Mike Smith was very rusty giving up juicy rebounds.

[flameester]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Hamilton with less than 20 minutes of ice last night.

Not sure what stat sheet you are looking at but mine says he played 26 minutes.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by flameester

Not sure what stat sheet you are looking at but mine says he played 26 minutes.

I believe it's the stats sheet that fits a specific poster's narrative.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

This team's lack of finish comes from the fact they put up some of the highest shot totals in the league, on goal (#7) and in total attempts (#3). Yet they're one of the lowest scoring teams in the league (#19). Pre-Gulutzan we finished 15-16 with 231 total goals scored, last season we had 226 and this season we're on pace for 231 this season.

We've stayed consistent in the goals department and based on the volume of shots taken and from the eye test, this team lacks finishers. If you watch the Jets, Leafs or Lightning at all, you'd think the samething as me. Those other teams have multiple players with absolute bombs, we don't.

But these players with bombs are playing in positions to succeed. Our shooters, Stone, Gio, Hamilton sat on the bench and watched Brodie shoot muffins on the first PP for most of the season.
Johhny is a much better player on his off wing on the PP, he played that in the past. But GG doesnt let him move. Why not try it? Its not like current set up works.
If you want the one timers you need to let players be in the right spot to shoot. Having Brouwer on the PP on the right side because he shoots right is the most ridiculous thing we have seen from GG. He has a stone hands player in the least effective spot to score. All he does is hug the post all PP. It is mind boggling that we keep trying that.

My personal favorite is Gio getting the puck and then walking the line to the middle to get a shot off. So dumb, so predictable, so ineffective. Coach GG can't come up with an answer why they are not scoring, that's so reassuring. I can point of a few things that we could at least try, but then again, we are fine with GG drawing a blank stare when asked what's wrong with this team. Some coach.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by flameester

Not sure what stat sheet you are looking at but mine says he played 26 minutes.

you're right, reading the wrong column

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

you're right, reading the wrong column

Or hoping no one would look it up.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

No, he might be closer to 50 with Gaudreau and more than 16 minutes of ice time. Guy has an absolute rocket and anyone who has watched him play would know that. If the system was so bad, then Gaudreau wouldn't be on pace for 90+ points, Monahan at 30, Ferland at 20 and Tkachuk at 24.

Blaming the system for a lack of finishing is such a cop out answer. It's like when people here were blaming Sigalet and trying to get him fired because Elliott was stinking it up here. Then Elliott showed us his real side in the playoffs and Smith has showed up to prove what actually good goaltending looks like.

Peter Loubardias called it right the other day when he said that this city and fanbase gets too down on coaching when this team isn't winning, more so then any other fanbase he's seen. I'm in total agreement with him. I've seen 11 or 12 coaches go through this franchise since I've been a fan and no coaching change has ever turned us into a juggernaut of a team.

That's low even for Loubardias to make that comment. Acting like coaches in Edmonton or Montreal weren't thrown to the wolves recently??

Why do you think this team has never turned into a juggernaut based on coaching? The Flames almost always go cheap and hire someone nobody else wants. With the exception of the Brent Sutter debacle where they actually lured a coach away, this team always picks a coach up off the scrap heap and they get what they pay for imo.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Or hoping no one would look it up.

yeah, that's what I do all day, post misleading information on a hockey fan message board in the belief no other flame fan will look at the stats.

Then i go to firehalls and start fires hoping no one will put it out.

[Rick M.]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

yeah, that's what I do all day, post misleading information on a hockey fan message board in the belief no other flame fan will look at the stats.

Then i go to firehalls and start fires hoping no one will put it out.

Confession is good for the soul.

[colbym72]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

That's low even for Loubardias to make that comment. Acting like coaches in Edmonton or Montreal weren't thrown to the wolves recently??

Why do you think this team has never turned into a juggernaut based on coaching? The Flames almost always go cheap and hire someone nobody else wants. With the exception of the Brent Sutter debacle where they actually lured a coach away, this team always picks a coach up off the scrap heap and they get what they pay for imo.

Because the roster hasn't been good enough and established a track record of whiffing on first round picks

[stang]

Originally Posted by Rick M.

Confession is good for the soul.

I miss the confessional thread.

[yourbestfriend]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Our entire right side was made up of left shot right wingers for a part of the season when we had Ferland, Frolik and Jagr. I didn't see anyone one timers here. The real answer might be that these guys don't have a talent to do so. I mean to be fair to these guys though, Jagr isn't even in the league anymore and Ferland was in the bottom 6 last season and Frolik is probably a natural 3rd liner anyway.

I've been thinking about this for quite a while now. Looking up and down the roster, I think the only player who can legitimately one time the puck with any kind of quality is Giordano. Ferland and Monahan I've seen do it from time to time, but not with any regularity. Tbh i'm not actually sure when was the last time a forward unloaded a one timer for a goal....?
I'm not saying getting a player who can one time the puck will solve any of our problems, but I think that somewhat speaks to the disconnect between the GM and coaches philosophy of what it takes to score goals versus the rest of the league.

[Fan in Exile]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Peter Loubardias called it right the other day when he said that this city and fanbase gets too down on coaching when this team isn't winning, more so then any other fanbase he's seen. I'm in total agreement with him. I've seen 11 or 12 coaches go through this franchise since I've been a fan and no coaching change has ever turned us into a juggernaut of a team.

I think the Flames only Stanley Cup appearance since the one they won was largely Daryl Sutter's coaching and that we haven't had a coach who has got the team playing to that level again since he stepped down as head coach.

I don't understand why GG should get the benefit of the doubt. What has he achieved? And if you think GG's doing a fine job and we generate so many good scoring chances and just need some pure goal scorers, then you should be calling for Treliving's head.

[Fan in Exile]

Originally Posted by yourbestfriend

I've been thinking about this for quite a while now. Looking up and down the roster, I think the only player who can legitimately one time the puck with any kind of quality is Giordano. Ferland and Monahan I've seen do it from time to time, but not with any regularity. Tbh i'm not actually sure when was the last time a forward unloaded a one timer for a goal....?
I'm not saying getting a player who can one time the puck will solve any of our problems, but I think that somewhat speaks to the disconnect between the GM and coaches philosophy of what it takes to score goals versus the rest of the league.

Didn't Jankowski score a lot of goals on one-timers on the PP in Stockton and in Providence? Seems to me I've seen quite a few in the highlight reels.