Treliving needs to start feeling the heat

[Classic_Sniper]

When a season is a failure, it’s the fault of not just one individual, but more likely everyone. Treliving has done a great job in a lot of facets, but player evaluation and pro scouting has escaped him.

Why management thought Brouwer, Lazar, Lack, Glass and to a certain extent Hamonic were going to put this team over the top baffles me. Even in years prior with the additions of Mason Raymond, Brandon Bollig, Jonas Hiller, F Hamilton, Grossman, Elliott and etc. Just a lot of misses here and we’ve burned a lot of dough and assets on to boot.

The pro scouts should be evaluated over the summer and several should be handed their pink slips because we need results now based on the all in situation we seem to be in and when I look at this roster, it’s just not even close to good enough to contend.

I posted the stat in a different thread that Johnny Gaudreau has registered a point in 27 of our 32 wins this season. If 1 player is being relied upon to help win this team 84% of their victoies, the rest of your roster just isn’t good enough.

I truly believe that our bottom 6 forwards is the reason why we’re not currently in a playoff spot because there’s a lot of other players who are meeting or exceeding their expectations.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Feaster made one good pick, Gaudreau. Monahan was an obvious one and everyone else has been a big pile of meh. Sieloff and Baertschi were shipped out of town, Klimchuk and Poirier are starting to look like busts, and Jankowski and Gillies are, IMO, overrated by most people here and have yet to show anything substantial at the NHL level.

It's still way too early to judge Treliving's drafting/prospect development but under his watch we have Fox, Andersson, Kylington, Parsons, Dube, Mangiapane, Valimaki, and Foo, in addition to a home run in Tkachuk. Also don't forget about a highly sought after Dman in Brandon Hickey that he was able to flip for our team MVP this year. That's the meat of our prospect base right now, and although all of these guys have yet to prove anything at the NHL level also, I'd put them up against the list of propsects Feaster assembled any day of the week.

Not all picks were home runs, but the number of players who have made NHL rosters is pretty good. Other than Johnny and Monahan, a lot of guys made the NHL.
Baertschi was on the outs with Hartley but puts up decent production (and turned in to Andersson, in fact) and Granlund is unspectacular but has a job.
Kulak, Jankowski and Gillies are all rookies, they still look like they should be fine if developed correctly.

I don’t disagree with the list of prospects from Tre looking good, it was more that
Feaster actually took bare cupboards and started to stock them. Not all home runs but certainly a lot of NHL assets. Treliving looks like he has continued with improved drafting. (And if Monahan is a no brainer, Tkachuk certainly is as well)

Then the question was how Treliving decided to augment the organization by stockpiling reclamation projects for the bottom 6. That I do not love.

[jayswin]

I think the Hamilton deal was a homerun, but needed to be the only swing for the fences. We needed to take that homerun and keep the draft picks coming around it. It's the other trades and free agent signings that have killed us.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by jayswin

I think the Hamilton deal was a homerun, but needed to be the only swing for the fences. We needed to take that homerun and keep the draft picks coming around it. It's the other trades and free agent signings that have killed us.

I think Trelivng over paid for Hamonic partially because he values good contracts more than most GM's. I also think he hit a home run on the Smith trade too

Treliving hasn't been great trading for and signing players from other teams but he has excelled at resigning his own players. No way should he be feeling the heat until next year if things don't pick up. The Flames will have loads of space this summer to be active in the free agent market. If he does well there this team has potential to be much better next year

Other than Brouwer IMO all players contracts are moveable. If things get tight when Tkachuk's contract is up he should have loads of options to move guys out. But I wouldn't be surprised he does very well at getting Tkachuk to resign for less than most expect he will get

The Flames have 0 cap hits in the top 40 of the NHL. Pretty good considering we have players like Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, Hamilton and Gio. By this summer we probably won't have a single contract in the top 50. Probably the best cap situation in the NHL right now for teams in the playoff race

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

The Flames will have loads of space this summer to be active in the free agent market. If he does well there this team has potential to be much better next year

Shrewd cap management is fine and all. But the UFA market this summer looks terrible.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/ar...agents-of-2018

Bailey has since signed. Same with Hornquist. Look over that list and tell me where the Flames will find a top-6 RW. The only guy who might make it to UFA is Neal, and if so the bidding for his services is going to get silly.

Teams today lock up their difference-makers long-term. Even second-tier guys like Patrick Hornquist no longer make it to UFA.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Shrewd cap management is fine and all. But the UFA market this summer looks terrible.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/ar...agents-of-2018

Bailey has since signed. Same with Hornquist. Look over that list and tell me where the Flames will find a top-6 RW. The only guy who might make it to UFA is Neal, and if so the bidding for his services is going to get silly.

Teams today lock up their difference-makers long-term. Even second-tier guys like Patrick Hornquist no longer make it to UFA.

True but people are also acting like the Flames are 20 points out of the playoffs too. Tampa, Philly, New jersey, Winnipeg, LA, Dallas, Colorado all missed the playoffs last year and throw in Vegas no reason a new coach and 1 or 2 players that can skate with Skill can't have much better results

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Did he coach the team into the 2nd round or did a team he coached happen to make it into the second round? A lot went right in that first round - Hiller was unreal in 4/5 games before the final game where he got yanked. Ferland pulled a Ferland, which he still does. Scoring from the likes of Bollig, Jones and Russell - it took the Monahan line until the third period of game 3 to get a point, and that was on the PP.

And looking back, Vancouver had a terrible team. The Sedins were pretty done even then and Horvat was a rookie. Calgary was extremely lucky, opponent-wise. I think the could have only beaten the Jets, aside from the Canucks, that year.

GG gets into the second round last year with (a) better goaltending against the Ducks who I think they outplayed, or (b) by playing the Sharks, Wild or Hawks.

And a lot went wrong as well. Going in without Giordano and having Brodie-Engelland and Wideman -Russell playing so well isn't by accident. Sure, they were easier, but you can't take that away. They finished 3rd in the division to set-up that match-up.

Hiller did great, and then he didn't and Hartley managed that.

Regardless, that is the second furthest the Flames have made it since the won the cup in '89, and that was a pretty lousy team when you take a gander at the roster.

P.S. They beat the Ducks once too. Ferland was out that series, and it was very apparent that they were over-matched physically and skillfully. That was a pretty lousy roster, and it was an accomplishment just getting that far and beating the Ducks once.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Inglewood Jack

what?? [Terry Crisp] has a Presidents Trophy and a Cup ring, [Bob Hartley] has 3 of this franchise's highest draft positions, plus one playoff round win powered by magical come from behind unicorn juice.

Technically, Hartley also has a President's Trophy and a Cup Ring.

[Corral]

Signing an aging #1 goalie was inherently risky when it comes to possible injury. Signing Smith was a good move with hindsight (As i was against it but Smith has shown me to be wrong in his ability) - but signing Lack has proven to be a mistake and that mistake is costing us big time now.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Larry Pleau was AGM and director of player personnel with the rangers in 94 when they won the cup.

He was the st.louis GM when they won the presidents trophy.

The Blues problems are a direct extension of having been sold 3 times in 12 years.

Without the bull#### brett Hull crease goal, Darcy Regier is likely a stanley cup winning general manager. In his tenure with Buffalo he guided that team to back to back conference finals appearances and a presidents trophy.

Again, that team's problems are directly traceable to ownership. While Regier was GM of the Sabres they were sold 3 times and filed for bankruptcy protection once.

Milbury had 11 years with the Islanders.
Garth Snow on year 12
Sather had 15 years with NYR
Bobby Clarke had 12 years with PHA
Dave Taylor had 9 years with LAK
Feaster had 8 years with TBL
Don Waddell 11 years with ATL

A couple of these guys had Cup wins in there. I don't believe years in service necessarily make for a good GM.

I hear you on ownership and maybe that's an issue here. I have no idea what the dynamics are in this organization. But they do let their GM's spend money.

[Fan in Exile]

I don't think it's just Treliving but an outdated organization philosophy led by Burke on filling holes with veterans and truculence that will hold this team back, no matter how they might eventually get lucky with prospects. We should have been targeting young players with speed instead of letting them go (like Byron). This overcooking nonsense is the wrong philosophy in the cap era. We have some strong defensive prospects but a log jam ahead of them. We need Rasmus filling in for Stone and using that saved money on his ELC in a place of need (scoring right winger). Why should we have any faith that will happen? The same hole has been there since Treliving started and he has obtained in order Setoguchi, Raymond, Frolik, Alex Chiasson, Brouwer, Foo, and Chris Stewart. I mean I love Frolik but he wasn't the solution.

Same thing with goaltending. Smith worked out - as a short term solution given his age - but how many swings and misses and wasted assets on trying to get reliable goaltending?

Coaching is another miss.

Maybe he learns and can right the ship...but should he and the entire management team, together with the coaching staff be feeling the heat? Damn right they should.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Shrewd cap management is fine and all. But the UFA market this summer looks terrible.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/ar...agents-of-2018

Bailey has since signed. Same with Hornquist. Look over that list and tell me where the Flames will find a top-6 RW. The only guy who might make it to UFA is Neal, and if so the bidding for his services is going to get silly.

Teams today lock up their difference-makers long-term. Even second-tier guys like Patrick Hornquist no longer make it to UFA.

JVR, Kane and Neal are all good candidates to improve this hockey club. Considering Tre was willing to go in on Troy Brouwer with term and AAV he sure as heck better be going after these guys hard as well. He's also emptied the stockpile of draft picks so the time is now. Another ho hum off season and I will have lost my faith in the guy despite the ability to sign current Flames to great extensions.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

GG gets into the second round last year with (a) better goaltending against the Ducks who I think they outplayed, or (b) by playing the Sharks, Wild or Hawks.

Everyone seems to trot out how the Flames are routinely outplaying the opposition under GG both this season and last. Somehow the team is getting swept and on the verge of missing the post season though.....This team is a much better coach and a forward or two away from making second round of the playoffs type of noise. Don't kid yourself.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

Everyone seems to trot out how the Flames are routinely outplaying the opposition under GG both this season and last. Somehow the team is getting swept and on the verge of missing the post season though.....This team is a much better coach and a forward or two away from making second round of the playoffs type of noise. Don't kid yourself.

The Oilers made the second round last year. And despite not beating them (yet), the current Flames are better than the Oilers (either this year or last year). The Rangers made the second round last year. They weren't a very good team (but had a very good coach, I admit). Ottawa made the second (and third ) round on the strength of a few really good players and a bunch of mediocre ones. St. Louis made the second round with the same team that's crapping the bed now.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The Oilers made the second round last year. And despite not beating them (yet), the current Flames are better than the Oilers (either this year or last year). The Rangers made the second round last year. They weren't a very good team (but had a very good coach, I admit). Ottawa made the second (and third ) round on the strength of a few really good players and a bunch of mediocre ones. St. Louis made the second round with the same team that's crapping the bed now.

Anything can happen in the playoffs. That said for Cinderella teams like the Senators it's usually lighting in a bottle where a goaltender plays lights out, the team collectively gets on a role where they all buy in, and you get the bounces in OT or calls go your way. Flames in the same playoff season simply didn't get the goaltending nor the officiating calls their way and you can make a case that had Elliott played as well as he did on their 10 game winning streak and the officiating was different the Flames win that series and who knows how far they go. Predators made the finals despite most people picking them to be one and done facing the Hawks in the first round.

Could this Flames team make a cup run? I think the roster still needs a tweak or two but I suppose it's possible given how Smith has played this season that he could get hot and the first line got on fire but lots of things would have to fall into place. If they miss the playoffs it's all moot.

[smiggy77]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Not all picks were home runs, but the number of players who have made NHL rosters is pretty good. Other than Johnny and Monahan, a lot of guys made the NHL.
Baertschi was on the outs with Hartley but puts up decent production (and turned in to Andersson, in fact) and Granlund is unspectacular but has a job.
Kulak, Jankowski and Gillies are all rookies, they still look like they should be fine if developed correctly.

I don’t disagree with the list of prospects from Tre looking good, it was more that
Feaster actually took bare cupboards and started to stock them. Not all home runs but certainly a lot of NHL assets. Treliving looks like he has continued with improved drafting. (And if Monahan is a no brainer, Tkachuk certainly is as well)

Then the question was how Treliving decided to augment the organization by stockpiling reclamation projects for the bottom 6. That I do not love.

the inability to fill the bottom 6 itself though is the better problem to have. Most GM's suffer from the opposite. Can't home grow their top 6 so they go out to UFA and overpay and then have cap issues. I'm glad that our only UFA liability is Brouwers contract and not like up north with someone like Lucic. The UFA market is ridiculous and something we shouldn't ever touch, unless absolute necessary.

Someone mentioned it before but our biggest issue is definitely the third line. If we can get production from that line, we will get more wins than not.

Our record:
- When Janko scores: 8-0
- When Bennett scores - 5-3
- When either or score - 9-3

I think Tre recognizes that and during the off season was hoping someone could graduate up to the big club from Shinkaruk, Klimchuk, etc., but when that didn't pan out, he tried upgrading that line by having somewhat skilled older guys on there (Jagr, Versteeg, etc.) Reclamation projects, yep I can agree with that, but they're calculated risks that didn't pay off unfortunately. It is what it is, gotta try the next thing.

I do feel this off season though there will be a pretty decent shake up. Tkachuk looks to be in a position where he can carry his own line and generate some offense and I have a feeling we'll see the team focus on building the line pairings around Mony/Johnny, Backlund/Frolik, and then maybe Tkachuk/Janko

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by smiggy77

the inability to fill the bottom 6 itself though is the better problem to have. Most GM's suffer from the opposite. Can't home grow their top 6 so they go out to UFA and overpay and then have cap issues. I'm glad that our only UFA liability is Brouwers contract and not like up north with someone like Lucic. The UFA market is ridiculous and something we shouldn't ever touch, unless absolute necessary.

Someone mentioned it before but our biggest issue is definitely the third line. If we can get production from that line, we will get more wins than not.

Our record:
- When Janko scores: 8-0
- When Bennett scores - 5-3
- When either or score - 9-3

I think Tre recognizes that and during the off season was hoping someone could graduate up to the big club from Shinkaruk, Klimchuk, etc., but when that didn't pan out, he tried upgrading that line by having somewhat skilled older guys on there (Jagr, Versteeg, etc.) Reclamation projects, yep I can agree with that, but they're calculated risks that didn't pay off unfortunately. It is what it is, gotta try the next thing.

I do feel this off season though there will be a pretty decent shake up. Tkachuk looks to be in a position where he can carry his own line and generate some offense and I have a feeling we'll see the team focus on building the line pairings around Mony/Johnny, Backlund/Frolik, and then maybe Tkachuk/Janko

This is exactly what happened. It's why he went after Foo as well. It's why he signed a consistent 17-25 goal/ 33-43 point man in Brouwer (who proceeded to have his worst production since his rookie year).

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by smiggy77

tI think Tre recognizes that and during the off season was hoping someone could graduate up to the big club from Shinkaruk, Klimchuk, etc., but when that didn't pan out, he tried upgrading that line by having somewhat skilled older guys on there (Jagr, Versteeg, etc.) Reclamation projects, yep I can agree with that, but they're calculated risks that didn't pay off unfortunately. It is what it is, gotta try the next thing.

That's the weird thing though, he, as everyone who follows the Flames knew that we had way more chances of top level D prospects graduating than forwards, and yet we still went out and upgraded the D again with 3 high picks, and left the forward opening to hope and band aids.

Now we have 6 quality NHL D-men, a 7th guy in the pressbox, two great D prospects in the AHL (Anderson and Kylington), two more huge D prospects coming (Valimaki and Fox) and then just a whole bunch of scrubs and holes in our forward group and no picks left from all our Dman spending.

I get it, build from the net out, but you can't just keep building around the net until it explodes with awesomeness and they hand us the Stanley Cup, you needed to build sufficiently and move on to goal scoring up front.

[Anduril]

Originally Posted by jayswin

That's the weird thing though, he, as everyone who follows the Flames knew that we had way more chances of top level D prospects graduating than forwards, and yet we still went out and upgraded the D again with 3 high picks, and left the forward opening to hope and band aids.

Now we have 6 quality NHL D-men, a 7th guy in the pressbox, two great D prospects in the AHL (Anderson and Kylington), two more huge D prospects coming (Valimaki and Fox) and then just a whole bunch of scrubs and holes in our forward group and no picks left from all our Dman spending.

I get it, build from the net out, but you can't just keep building around the net until it explodes with awesomeness and they hand us the Stanley Cup, you needed to build sufficiently and move on to goal scoring up front.

While you could say we have 6 quality NHL d-men right now, the picture prior to the Hamonic trade was:

Giordano - Hamilton as a great top pairing
Brodie - xxx
xxx - xxx

and Bartkowski/Kulak as your 7th guy since neither was to be trusted in a top 6 role prior to this season. So even with knowledge of how well Kulak's been, we're still left with two holes in the 2nd and 3rd pairing on the right side. In an ideal world, Rasmussen comes up and takes the bottom pairing spot but even then you're left with a top pairing and super young and untested 3rd pairing. Really, 3 or 4 NHLers at best before seeing how things actually pan out.

So Brodie who's been declining at an alarming rate and a need for a dependable partner who can help return Brodie to form/be a force of their own. Given that kind of picture, it's a little more understandable as to why the Hamonic deal was made, even if it's looking pretty bad so far since neither him or Brodie have looked remotely close to expectations.

My bigger deal is probably with somebody like Stone who as much as we'd like to say could step up in a top 4 role if needed, being signed on for 3 years at that relatively hefty caphit when we do have so many d spots as mentioned...plus not actually being all that great at moving the puck. Stone was signed a week after Hamonic was brought in. It was a luxury that definitely didn't needed and was not much of a luxury at all since one of his biggest assets in his booming shot isn't even being used.



This leads the door to open on another rant about the coaching but it definitely does bring up some questions as to why things have stayed the way they are. There have been things that aren't broke (3M line, top pairing) and don't need fixing but everything else surrounding it is nonfunctional or falling apart.

[smiggy77]

Originally Posted by jayswin

That's the weird thing though, he, as everyone who follows the Flames knew that we had way more chances of top level D prospects graduating than forwards, and yet we still went out and upgraded the D again with 3 high picks, and left the forward opening to hope and band aids.

Now we have 6 quality NHL D-men, a 7th guy in the pressbox, two great D prospects in the AHL (Anderson and Kylington), two more huge D prospects coming (Valimaki and Fox) and then just a whole bunch of scrubs and holes in our forward group and no picks left from all our Dman spending.

I get it, build from the net out, but you can't just keep building around the net until it explodes with awesomeness and they hand us the Stanley Cup, you needed to build sufficiently and move on to goal scoring up front.

Yeah I don't think we had 6 quality NHL Dmen. We really had a solid top 3 in Gio, Brodie, Hamilton, and then Stone who is slotted for a 5-6 role. Bart was always planned to be that 6-7, so really there was a pretty glaring hole in that 4th spot.

Kulak and Andersson were pretty unknown on their potential preseason and it would be a pretty big risk to run with them in that group. You never want to rush your prospects as well.

Everytime Ryan Huska talks about Kylington on the radio, he still says hes learning the game at the AHL. Personally, Kylington is likely two seasons out from being a regular NHLer.

It really seems like a tough balancing act, especially when you evaluate the risks at the time.