What ails the Flames?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

What Brouwer has done previously is irrelevant. He is taking up a spot on the PP that could be better used for someone else who might actually score.

And I don't totally blame the coach, I partially blame him. I think everyone knew we had weak forward depth this year. But overplaying Stajan, Brouwer, and the like doesn't help.

Gulutzan needs to make the most of what he has, not beat a dead horse.

And I do blame Trelieving. That contract needs to be bought out this summer, and that's on him big time. The Hamonic trade is also looking like a disaster, and I said I'm that thread I think it should cost Trelieving his job.

Who exactly were you suggesting for 30 seconds on the 2nd unit PP? Jankowski?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under

Relative to those teams with maybe a couple exceptions, Monahan - Backlund - Jankowski looks awfully pedestrian.

You build a team from the middle out through effective drafting and proper development. This is no secret, it’s how teams continue to win in the NHL.

In fairness to Treliving, the expectation was:

Bennett (neck and neck with Reinhart and Draisaitl in rankings, with sky-high predictions)-Monahan-Backlund-Jankowski

Treliving quite fairly thought he had centre worked out, and turned to filling out the D and goaltending. Because the actual common wisdom is that it's down the middle and D that wins. Look at Nashville. Their C depth is good but not great, but they have stellar D and elite goaltending.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

In fairness to Treliving, the expectation was:

Bennett (neck and neck with Reinhart and Draisaitl in rankings, with sky-high predictions)-Monahan-Backlund-Jankowski

Treliving quite fairly thought he had centre worked out, and turned to filling out the D and goaltending. Because the actual common wisdom is that it's down the middle and D that wins. Look at Nashville. Their C depth is good but not great, but they have stellar D and elite goaltending.

I understand that Bennett played wing until he went to Kingston and there were questions there about whether he was a Center or a winger. If this is correct, I am sure Treliving would have known, and built his own actual expectations off of that.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Right now? AHL level netminding.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I would say coaching generally, but especially the PP.

I think roster management has been a bit of a failure as well. Treliving has done a pretty good job, but there are still some pretty big holes to fill. A legitimate 1st line RW would probably see increasing returns as well. Gaudreau would probably be leading the league in points if we had one. No offense to Ferland, but he is not that player.

Obviously getting a top RW is not easy though so it's difficult to put blame on Treliving, but I do question why we needed to spend valuable assets on Hamonic in the off-season. Don't get me wrong, I like Hamonic and he is a welcome addition for sure, but I feel the move wasn't the biggest priority to give up what we did.

Ferland has put the top line on pace to have career seasons despite his shortcomings. For me, unless you are going to shift Tkachuk over to that spot and go top heavy, there is no reason to move Ferland off that line. Signing a right hand shot that can actually finish is the only pre-requisite for this team in the offseason and should come via FA in July. A player that allows the team to shuffle Brouwer out of the picture and potentially a guy like Frolik down to the third line with Jankowski would do wonders for this group offensively. Making room for some steady, young D to graduate from Stockton would also be a great idea and free up the cap space needed to make said signing.

Gaudreau-Monahan-Ferland
Tkachuk-Backlund-JVR/Kane
Versteeg-Jankowski-Frolik
Klimchuk-Shore-Hathaway
Bennett

Gio-Hamilton
Brodie-Hamonic
Andersson-Kulak
Wotherspoon

Smith
Gillies

A group like this under the guidance of a revamped coaching staff could certainly bounce back next season.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I understand that Bennett played wing until he went to Kingston and there were questions there about whether he was a Center or a winger. If this is correct, I am sure Treliving would have known, and built his own actual expectations off of that.

I imagine they mostly looked at what he did as a C in Kingston, from age 16 onward. He famously modeled his play after Gilmour. In fact, I never once heard any analyst say he projected as a winger, or that it was even in doubt.

https://www.nhl.com/flames/news/sam-...s-say/c-724235

[Classic_Sniper]

I do find it funny though that in Alberta right now, both fanbases facing a similar situation are on the complete opposite ends of the spectrum. The majority here are putting the blame on the coach whereas up North, the majority are putting the blame on the GM. Very interesting case study indeed.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I do find it funny though that in Alberta right now, both fanbases facing a similar situation are on the complete opposite ends of the spectrum. The majority here are putting the blame on the coach whereas up North, the majority are putting the blame on the GM. Very interesting case study indeed.

Chia signed horrible contracts (Lucic, Russell, Draisaitl) and made spectacularly bad trades (Reinhart, Strome, Larsson). One can quibble with some signings and trades Treliving made, but they weren't crippling like those.

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Chia signed horrible contracts (Lucic, Russell, Draisaitl) and made spectacularly bad trades (Reinhart, Strome, Larsson). One can quibble with some signings and trades Treliving made, but they weren't crippling like those.

Hamonic is Treliving's Larsson.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Chia signed horrible contracts (Lucic, Russell, Draisaitl) and made spectacularly bad trades (Reinhart, Strome, Larsson). One can quibble with some signings and trades Treliving made, but they weren't crippling like those.

Whoa, did you just put Draisaitl in the same conversation as Lucic? I'd take Draisaitl on my team any day even at a slight overpayment. Everytime I watch the Oilers play, the guy is an absolute beast and can drive play. Lucic's is contract is on a different level of bad.

Obviously there's been some big blunders, but our GM hasn't been perfect either. There's a long list of failed players and I think our draft pick situation over the next few years speaks for itself. But the main point of my post was to show how polar opposite fans' opinions can be and that in similar situations, the problem likely lies more in the middle than to fixate and put blame on just 1 person.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I imagine they mostly looked at what he did as a C in Kingston, from age 16 onward. He famously modeled his play after Gilmour. In fact, I never once heard any analyst say he projected as a winger, or that it was even in doubt.

https://www.nhl.com/flames/news/sam-...s-say/c-724235

I thought he played both and they ended up moving him to C, and the Gilmour push for his dad was a lifelong thing more related to tenacity that became a story in Kingston where he wore the same number

This guy from hockey news said he was a winger
http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/ar...t-preview-2014

I know he played C but understood it was 1-2 years of junior

Either way I am sure Treliving is pragmatic enough to know that a draft pick not named Crosby isn’t automatically a franchise player

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Whoa, did you just put Draisaitl in the same conversation as Lucic? I'd take Draisaitl on my team any day even at a slight overpayment. Everytime I watch the Oilers play, the guy is an absolute beast and can drive play. Lucic's is contract is on a different level of bad.

Obviously there's been some big blunders, but our GM hasn't been perfect either. There's a long list of failed players and I think our draft pick situation over the next few years speaks for itself. But the main point of my post was to show how polar opposite fans' opinions can be and that in similar situations, the problem likely lies more in the middle than to fixate and put blame on just 1 person.

Draisaitl is in the same sentence, but the blunders aren't comparable. That said, I don't think he's slightly overpaid - he's overpaid by $2M give or take. He's got a cap hit almost $2M more than Gaudreau, who is a better playmaker and Monahan, who is a better scorer.

I didn't say Treliving was perfect, but IMO he's made no more errors than most GMs - he's had way more successes IMO. And his biggest mistakes, like Brouwer, Raymond and Lazar haven't crippled the team. Of course, I don't mind the Hamonic trade because I think the Flames needed a guy like that, but even if you think he overpaid, it's not by that much. Bode Wilde isn't transforming this team any time soon.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I thought he played both and they ended up moving him to C, and the Gilmour push for his dad was a lifelong thing more related to tenacity that became a story in Kingston where he wore the same number

This guy from hockey news said he was a winger
http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/ar...t-preview-2014

I know he played C but understood it was 1-2 years of junior

Either way I am sure Treliving is pragmatic enough to know that a draft pick not named Crosby isn’t automatically a franchise player

He played C all through junior. He started at C as a 16 year old and made the all-rookie second team as a centre (McDingus was on the first team).
http://ontariohockeyleague.com/conno...ookie-of-year/

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Draisaitl is in the same sentence, but the blunders aren't comparable. That said, I don't think he's slightly overpaid - he's overpaid by $2M give or take. He's got a cap hit almost $2M more than Gaudreau, who is a better playmaker and Monahan, who is a better scorer.

I didn't say Treliving was perfect, but IMO he's made no more errors than most GMs - he's had way more successes IMO. And his biggest mistakes, like Brouwer, Raymond and Lazar haven't crippled the team. Of course, I don't mind the Hamonic trade because I think the Flames needed a guy like that, but even if you think he overpaid, it's not by that much. Bode Wilde isn't transforming this team any time soon.

Why would you just compare Draisaitl to Gaudreau or Monahan's contract though? Players who finish top 10 in points which Draisaitl did last season get paid. Monahan has never even come close to top 10, so I think his contract while higher than what they would have wanted, is still very good and I certainly wouldn't put it anywhere near the same ball park as Lucic who is carried by Draisaitl and McDavid night in and night out. His closest comparable is probably the Tarasenko contract than anything.

Treliving is not in any trouble in my books, but he certainly will deserve his fair share of blame. I also think a few of his pro scouts should be given the pink slips because anyone who thought that Raymond, Brouwer, Bollig, Lazar, Lack, Elliott, Hiller, Shinkaruk, F Hamilton, Grossman, Glass and etc were going to make turn this team around shouldn't be employed by an NHL franchise.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

In fairness to Treliving, the expectation was:

Bennett (neck and neck with Reinhart and Draisaitl in rankings, with sky-high predictions)-Monahan-Backlund-Jankowski

Treliving quite fairly thought he had centre worked out, and turned to filling out the D and goaltending. Because the actual common wisdom is that it's down the middle and D that wins. Look at Nashville. Their C depth is good but not great, but they have stellar D and elite goaltending.

I appreciate your point, I don’t want this thread to become a referendum on Sam Bennett, but I did mention prior that Sam Bennett being, what looks to be, a total bust really hurt the competitive development of this team and as you illustrated put a significant wrench into Trelivings plans. Its become painfully obvious though that the depth on this team in centres, wingers and goaltending is painfully thin. My earlier post was more showing how far away the Flames are from actually competing.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under

I appreciate your point, I don’t want this thread to become a referendum on Sam Bennett, but I did mention prior that Sam Bennett being, what looks to be, a total bust really hurt the competitive development of this team and as you illustrated put a significant wrench into Trelivings plans. Its become painfully obvious though that the depth on this team in centres, wingers and goaltending is painfully thin. My earlier post was more showing how far away the Flames are from actually competing.

I'm convinced that if the Flames had picked William Nylander or Nikolai Ehlers instead, then we'd be a playoff team right now. The first time I saw both of them play, I knew they were going to be stars.

[Steve Bozek]

The major problem is the lack of scoring depth. At the start of the season,Treliving was worried about where the scoring was going to come from. This was supposed to be Bennett's breakout year, and that scenario hasn't come to pass. There is zero depth at right wing, as evidenced by the big drop in performance since Ferland's injury. The sub-par performance of the backup goalies is being overemphasized as a cause of the recent Flames' drop out of the playoff grouping - with one exception, they've limited the opponents' scoring reasonably well - the skaters just haven't been able to shoot straight.

[NiklasSundblad]

1. Bad coaching in general, this isn't exactly a fresh topic. Subcategories include special teams, defensive systems, breakout, zone entry systems. In-game adjustments, in-season adjustments, line utilization, individual player utilization. The mental aspect, big game preparedness, being able to regroup after getting scored on.

2. The bottom 6 is no good, this is heavily compounded by the problems listed in item 1. Nearly half the players on this roster are being used as square pegs in round holes. The coach isn't utilizing what strengths exist in that group, instead trying to fit players into predetermined roles regardless of their individual attributes.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Why would you just compare Draisaitl to Gaudreau or Monahan's contract though? Players who finish top 10 in points which Draisaitl did last season get paid. Monahan has never even come close to top 10, so I think his contract while higher than what they would have wanted, is still very good and I certainly wouldn't put it anywhere near the same ball park as Lucic who is carried by Draisaitl and McDavid night in and night out. His closest comparable is probably the Tarasenko contract than anything.

Treliving is not in any trouble in my books, but he certainly will deserve his fair share of blame. I also think a few of his pro scouts should be given the pink slips because anyone who thought that Raymond, Brouwer, Bollig, Lazar, Lack, Elliott, Hiller, Shinkaruk, F Hamilton, Grossman, Glass and etc were going to make turn this team around shouldn't be employed by an NHL franchise.

I didn't compare just Monahan and Draisaitl. I compared Draisaitl to another winger, Gaudreau (who has more points and is in the top 10) as well. Plus Monahan has more goals than Draisaitl. Draisaitl is good, but he also scored the majority of his points beside McDavid. Even if you compare him to Tarasenko, he makes a million more.

Chia screwed up by signing McDavid first. He needed to drive a harder bargain with Draisaitl using the looming McDavid negotiation as a bargaining point.

Draisaitl isn't the worst contract they have, but it's too high, for an RFA that had one good year on McDavid's wing. I bet if they ever tried to move him they'd need to retain some salary.

[EldrickOnIce]

Regarding #2, you are talking about the bottom 6 not being utilized properly?
Because the top 6 have definitely played like the right peg in the right hole.

I think the bottom 6 is just no good. And in saying that, I'm not saying the coaching hasn't been no good also, but there's a rookie and a lot of less than or equal to replacement players in the bottom of that lineup.

The second pairing? Well that's a different story.