What ails the Flames?

[Macho0978]

Coaching, the need for more speed with skill and TJ Brodie. Add a good top 6 RW that can skate and has some talent and slide Frolik down to the 3rd line to improve the depth and this team isn't that far off.

I also think new coach could help TJ Brodie too

[madmike]

I just dont think the roster is as good as people thought. The Flames have 2 ok centres but lack a dominant one. They have no scoring RWs. Bennett at this point isn’t a bust, but doesn’t look like he’ll be the player he was expected to be.
Really the only forward strength is at LW. The bottom 6 is pretty bad.

The D corps is ok. The top pairing I think is excellent. Second pairing is meh. Brodie is a real disappointment. The third pairing I think is actually a pretty solid NHL 3rd pairing.

I’m not a huge Gulutzan fan, but replacing the coach isn’t going to magically fix this team. The talent just isn’t there.

[Macho0978]

The Penguins look awful under Johnston and they fired him and have won 2 cups since

Even Sidney Crosby looked awful under Johnston

Coaching can fix alot

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

Maybe the reason our supporting players don't contribute is because Gulutzan completely misscasts them in their roles. Brouwer is unable to score anymore, but we keep putting him on the PP. Could we maybe try someone with a little scoring touch in that role? Maybe Jankowski? We bring up our leading AHL scorerer and don't give him a sniff of any offensive chances. Just plug away on the 3/4 line and not even a chance on the PP.

I'm not saying we have great scoring depth, because it sure doesn't look like it. But when your head coach missuses the little depth you have it certainly doesn't help.

Brouwer has been bad this season and has been underperforming without a doubt. But why would you blame the coach exclusively for “misusing” him? This is one of the few right handed shooters we have and he finished 6th on our team in PP points last season and also has been very proficient on the PP throughout his career.

As much as everyone loves scapegoating the coach for every problem this team has, Brouwer’s struggles has been on him. He’s been given opportunities and he’s blown them. With how quick the game is played now, he’s just a slow plug at this point in his career and that’s actually on Treliving for not forecasting that.

Nobody blames McLellan up north for Lucic’s struggles, people blame the Chiarelli for that mistake and the same rules apply here.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Changing the coach shouldn't preclude the team from hopefully buying Brouwer out.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

The Penguins look awful under Johnston and they fired him and have won 2 cups since

Even Sidney Crosby looked awful under Johnston

Coaching can fix alot

That’s just one example though. Changing coaches from Roy to Bednar went the complete opposite way and how about the spectacular failure of John Tortorella replacing Alain Vignault? Sometimes changing coaches actually causes more problems.

Also, the Pittsburgh example isn’t exactly a great example for you to use considering Sullivan and Gulutzan coached together recently and share a lot of similarities. So you might want to think of a different example to make your point.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Brouwer has been bad this season and has been underperforming without a doubt. But why would you blame the coach exclusively for “misusing” him? This is one of the few right handed shooters we have and he finished 6th on our team in PP points last season and also has been very proficient on the PP throughout his career.

As much as everyone loves scapegoating the coach for every problem this team has, Brouwer’s struggles has been on him. He’s been given opportunities and he’s blown them. With how quick the game is played now, he’s just a slow plug at this point in his career and that’s actually on Treliving for not forecasting that.

Nobody blames McLellan up north for Lucic’s struggles, people blame the Chiarelli for that mistake and the same rules apply here.

What Brouwer has done previously is irrelevant. He is taking up a spot on the PP that could be better used for someone else who might actually score.

And I don't totally blame the coach, I partially blame him. I think everyone knew we had weak forward depth this year. But overplaying Stajan, Brouwer, and the like doesn't help.

Gulutzan needs to make the most of what he has, not beat a dead horse.

And I do blame Trelieving. That contract needs to be bought out this summer, and that's on him big time. The Hamonic trade is also looking like a disaster, and I said I'm that thread I think it should cost Trelieving his job.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

What Brouwer has done previously is irrelevant. He is taking up a spot on the PP that could be better used for someone else who might actually score.

And I don't totally blame the coach, I partially blame him. I think everyone knew we had weak forward depth this year. But overplaying Stajan, Brouwer, and the like doesn't help.

Gulutzan needs to make the most of what he has, not beat a dead horse.

And I do blame Trelieving. That contract needs to be bought out this summer, and that's on him big time. The Hamonic trade is also looking like a disaster, and I said I'm that thread I think it should cost Trelieving his job.

They’ve tried others and they’ve seen little success. Brouwer is not a great option, but he’s one of the few right shootjng options with our decimated RW depth. Once Versteeg is back, Brouwer won’t be necessary on the PP.

Also, the whole notion of over playing the 4th line is overblown. Stajan, Lazar and etc play like 9-10 mins which is typical for any 4th line in the NHL.

Also, the only reason why Brouwer has elevated his minutes is because of injuries. He had to play up the lineup with Jagr, Versteeg, Frolik and Ferland injuries. He’s literally been our most healthiest RWer as sad as that sounds.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

That’s just one example though. Changing coaches from Roy to Bednar went the complete opposite way and how about the spectacular failure of John Tortorella replacing Alain Vignault? Sometimes changing coaches actually causes more problems.

Also, the Pittsburgh example isn’t exactly a great example for you to use considering Sullivan and Gulutzan coached together recently and share a lot of similarities. So you might want to think of a different example to make your point.

Nice moving of the goal posts seeing you brought up Bednar which is a terrible example as he was thrown into a terrible situation a few summers ago when Roy quit in the middle of August. Even at that he's made solid improvements in year two as they have a better record than the Flames. Under Gulutzan the Flames have regressed in season two despite having a better roster to work with than year one. There's no doubt he's done a better job this season in Denver than Gulutzan has done in Calgary.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Originally Posted by madmike

I just dont think the roster is as good as people thought. The Flames have 2 ok centres but lack a dominant one. They have no scoring RWs. Bennett at this point isn’t a bust, but doesn’t look like he’ll be the player he was expected to be.
Really the only forward strength is at LW. The bottom 6 is pretty bad.

The D corps is ok. The top pairing I think is excellent. Second pairing is meh. Brodie is a real disappointment. The third pairing I think is actually a pretty solid NHL 3rd pairing.

I’m not a huge Gulutzan fan, but replacing the coach isn’t going to magically fix this team. The talent just isn’t there.

Thanks for this post, I completely agree.

Just quickly looking at centre depth on top teams in the NHL:

Winnipeg Jets: Schiefle-Little-Stastny
San Jose Sharks: Pavelski-Couture-Tierney with Thornton injured.
LA Kings: Kopitar - Carter - Nate Thompson
Anaheim Ducks: Getzlaf - Kesler - Henrique
Nashville Predators: Johansen - Turris - Bonino
Minnesota Wild: Staal - Koivu - Cullen
Tampa Bay Lightning: Stamkos - Brayden Point - Tyler Johnson
Pittsburgh Penguins: Crosby - Malkin - Brassard
Washington Capitals: Backstrom - Kuznetsov - Eller
Philadelphia: Couturier - Nolan Patrick - Filpulla
Boston: Riley Nash - Kreiji - Backes with Bergeron injured
Toronto: Nylander - Kadri - Bozak - Plekanec with Matthews injured

Relative to those teams with maybe a couple exceptions, Monahan - Backlund - Jankowski looks awfully pedestrian.

You build a team from the middle out through effective drafting and proper development. This is no secret, it’s how teams continue to win in the NHL.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Nice moving of the goal posts seeing you brought up Bednar which is a terrible example as he was thrown into a terrible situation a few summers ago when Roy quit in the middle of August. Even at that he's made solid improvements in year two as they have a better record than the Flames. Under Gulutzan the Flames have regressed in season two despite having a better roster to work with than year one. There's no doubt he's done a better job this season in Denver than Gulutzan has done in Calgary.

No, the example I provided was to prove that firing a coach doesn’t always lead to improvements, which it didn’t. There’s tons of other examples out there if that one isn’t to your liking. Even if you want to disregard the Colorado’s collapse, they’re still a middling team like us. We were a rebuilding team who is now a middling team as well.

We were never a contender despite everyone’s over the top, sky high expectations. The jump from being a consistently good team to being a legitimate contender is probably the biggest leap of all. You don’t go from out of the playoffs to a wild card team then straight to a Stanley Cup contender in just a short coupe of years.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

No, the example I provided was to prove that firing a coach doesn’t always lead to improvements, which it didn’t. There’s tons of other examples out there if that one isn’t to your liking. Even if you want to disregard the Colorado’s collapse, they’re still a middling team like us. We were a rebuilding team who is now a middling team as well.

We were never a contender despite everyone’s over the top, sky high expectations. The jump from being a consistently good team to being a legitimate contender is probably the biggest leap of all. You don’t go from out of the playoffs to a wild card team then straight to a Stanley Cup contender in just a short coupe of years.

Who said they were cup contenders? Certainly not me and I don't recall many here expecting more than maybe a trip to the 2nd round. They should be a playoff team at the very least and not below the Avalanche in the West. They key is you need to see progress. They have gone from out of the playoffs to wildcard to back out of the playoffs again. This is clearly not forward progress. Firing a coach doesn't necessarily lead to improvement but when you miss the playoffs there's not much worse you can get. Wasting another season on a head coach that has proven he's not the guy is probably the worst thing the GM can do at this point as you can't blow up the roster.

[Stay Golden]

He wears suits and does not instill confidence or the will to win.

[Bunk]

To me there are some overriding issues like mental preparation (including playing at home), slow transition game, and personnel decisions.

But beyond that there seems to be the sort of whack-a-mole of problems whereby there are one or two major issues hobbling the team at any time. When they straighten one thing out, something else screws them up. Not just normal ebbs and flows, but total and catastrophic drop offs costing games.

Early - defensive turnovers, but great goaltending, holding leads.
Middle - defense tighter up, but then the special teams crapped the bed. Two lines is are up, but two disappear. Usually our OT play is great, then disappears.
Late - special teams get better, but we lose Smith and goaltending is poor. On top, our players forget how to shoot.

Can’t put it all together.

[blender]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Who said they were cup contenders? Certainly not me and I don't recall many here expecting more than maybe a trip to the 2nd round. They should be a playoff team at the very least and not below the Avalanche in the West. They key is you need to see progress. They have gone from out of the playoffs to wildcard to back out of the playoffs again. This is clearly not forward progress. Firing a coach doesn't necessarily lead to improvement but when you miss the playoffs there's not much worse you can get. Wasting another season on a head coach that has proven he's not the guy is probably the worst thing the GM can do at this point as you can't blow up the roster.

The Oilers say, "hold my beer."


Actually, I agree with your point EE; just couldn't resist the obvious!

[Harry Lime]

There has always been a certain level of 'fancy lines' going on with GG. He clearly feels that there needs to be a scoring threat on every line, so he can play each line in every situation. Why not :

Defensive Zone Starts = Backlund, Frolik, Bouwer (third line)
Offensive Zone Starts = Janko, Tkachuk, Bennett (second line)
All Situations = First line
Energy = Fourth line

What would the season have looked like if there was no playing around, and everybody knew their role? If GG thought a little more 'old school' I can't help but think that we would be in a playoff spot right now.

That entire second line features high end scorers since the moment they first laced on skates, and this season they should have been given a green light to score. Instead all we get is defense, and offense accidentally, from them. (Or that is how it feels)

There would be more reliance on the high priced defense, but it's not like they are activated anyway.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Who said they were cup contenders? Certainly not me and I don't recall many here expecting more than maybe a trip to the 2nd round. They should be a playoff team at the very least and not below the Avalanche in the West. They key is you need to see progress. They have gone from out of the playoffs to wildcard to back out of the playoffs again. This is clearly not forward progress. Firing a coach doesn't necessarily lead to improvement but when you miss the playoffs there's not much worse you can get. Wasting another season on a head coach that has proven he's not the guy is probably the worst thing the GM can do at this point as you can't blow up the roster.

There's been tons of contender talk this season. Why do you think the fire Gulutzan thread reached 3700 posts? Even when we were in a Pacific playoff position with a definite chance to win a round that thread was still on fire. A lot of people here expected better and yes, quite a few people expected us to be Cup contenders and I remember this because I was the one arguing with them about how we're not there yet.

I'll agree with you that we haven't seen expected progress this season and points wise, we're slightly under where we should be and this season. I've been very clear that I think the roster construction is the actual problem with this team. Not fast, not skilled enough, too many penalties, poor back up goaltending and just embarrassing RW depth. As many issues as some feel the coach has, the roster problems run even deeper IMO.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by madmike

I just dont think the roster is as good as people thought. The Flames have 2 ok centres but lack a dominant one. They have no scoring RWs. Bennett at this point isn’t a bust, but doesn’t look like he’ll be the player he was expected to be.
Really the only forward strength is at LW. The bottom 6 is pretty bad.

The D corps is ok. The top pairing I think is excellent. Second pairing is meh. Brodie is a real disappointment. The third pairing I think is actually a pretty solid NHL 3rd pairing.

I’m not a huge Gulutzan fan, but replacing the coach isn’t going to magically fix this team. The talent just isn’t there.

So you honestly think this coaching staff is maximizing the roster?

Flames have 2 very good centre’s, 2 top end LW, an elite first pairing, and a legit top starting goalie.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

There has always been a certain level of 'fancy lines' going on with GG. He clearly feels that there needs to be a scoring threat on every line, so he can play each line in every situation. Why not :

Defensive Zone Starts = Backlund, Frolik, Bouwer (third line)
Offensive Zone Starts = Janko, Tkachuk, Bennett (second line)
All Situations = First line
Energy = Fourth line

What would the season have looked like if there was no playing around, and everybody knew their role? If GG thought a little more 'old school' I can't help but think that we would be in a playoff spot right now.

That entire second line features high end scorers since the moment they first laced on skates, and this season they should have been given a green light to score. Instead all we get is defense, and offense accidentally, from them. (Or that is how it feels)

There would be more reliance on the high priced defense, but it's not like they are activated anyway.

What do you do then when the worst defensive line on the team (Janko line) is getting absolutely crushed by opponents each and every shift? There's a reason why they see a lot of offensive zone starts. They are getting protected because they're a young line and they scored on way more than they produce.

Any coach worth his salt would understand this concept. You start the Backlund line in the defensive zone a lot because they've proven that they can defend well against the opposition's top lines and transition the play back to the offensive zone.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

So you honestly think this coaching staff is maximizing the roster?

Flames have 2 very good centre’s, 2 top end LW, an elite first pairing, and a legit top starting goalie.

Outside of Johnny setting up Monahan, he's generally been invisible on too many shifts. Backlund's line was more effective last season, our bottom 6 is one of worst in the entire NHL and our overall RW depth is absolutely abysmal.

Mike Smith is historically an injury prone goaltender and finding a quality back up was a necessity. This team is not getting that and it has potentially cost us the playoffs this season as we've received too many poor efforts from Lack, Gillies and Ridditch to a lesser extent.

This roster has too many holes right now to be a guaranteed playoff team year after year.