Treliving needs to start feeling the heat

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Can we stop saying not lottery protecting be pick was a big mistake . The NYI get a say on the trade and obviously wouldn’t accept a protected pick

I get what you are saying, but it could be argued, that if NYI insisted on not protecting the pick, Tre should have break down the negotiations. Otherwise he seems to end up being robbed by NYI.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by MisterJoji

Generally, I like the majority of the moves Treliving has made. I feel like his “win now” moves would’ve paid off if he hadn’t had made the critical error of hiring Gulutzan. Here’s a coach who has had 3 full seasons and 1 abridged season and has yet to win one playoff game. If that’s not reason enough to cut ties with him after this season then Treliving can go too.

I agree. Getting rid of Hartley for a glorified assistant coach was a miscalculation. If they wanted to make a coaching change, whatever, but they needed a clear upgrade behind the bench.

I still think the assembly of the team has been generally good, but certainly not perfect. IMO this team with a better head coach is cruising into the playoffs right now.

Ultimately though, that is Treliving's mistake to own and correct.

[Torchdemall]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Can we stop saying not lottery protecting be pick was a big mistake . The NYI get a say on the trade and obviously wouldn’t accept a protected pick

Honestly I'm tired of the whole picks argument in general. There are no guarantees a pick will translate into the show at all and everyone talks like its the end of the world if we gave out a pick for a known commodity. Yeah we need to draft for the future but compared to a lot of clubs we have too many veteran passengers on this team and a good number of players in the farm, its the one place where this organization seems to have freaking clue what they are doing, so maybe they don't feel this is a very deep draft year, or what is there is likely not going to be available for where they think they will land given the team they ice should place them in the standings. Maybe they have identified plenty of decent picks they can go for late in rounds, they've had plenty of those.

I really don't mind the moves that have been made, it was not that bad of a sacrifice imo and what you got are serviceable players with potentially to improve and if you consider this whole team has under-performed this year then we might be giggling about this in years to come, you can never really gauge a trade on a single year especially this kind of one. I still think these will pan out better then they look now.

[GordonBlue]

No flame fan should complain about not hitting the late round jackpot. You got gaudreau. How often would one expect a team to hit a grand slam like that? Not that tre made that pick.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Pointman

I get what you are saying, but it could be argued, that if NYI insisted on not protecting the pick, Tre should have break down the negotiations. Otherwise he seems to end up being robbed by NYI.

Then criticize the trade in general. I didn’t like the trade at the time and It turned Out about as I expected . But to say “ he should have lottery protected the pick” makes it sound like a paperwork error !

[Enoch Root]

People are significantly overplaying the Treliving comments in his interview with Mackenzie. Treliving didn't volunteer that on his own, he didn't offer it up. Mackenzie asked him a question, at the end of a very positive interview, that discussed - extensively - why the Flames were a top team. To finish the interview, Mackenzie asked the question 'what keeps you up at night?' to balance the interview.

Treliving could not answer with 'nothing, we're good'. That would have been stupid and arrogant. What he did was the right thing... he thought about it, and the came up with what he believed to be the weakest part of the team overall: goalscoring.

He did not say 'our lack of goalscoring keeps me up at night' as some people like to spin it. Anyway...

He also addressed the issue in the offseason. It's not like all he did was go out and get Hamonic (which was a great move) and completely ignored goalscoring. And even though Goaudreau, Monahan, Ferland, and Tkachuk have had great years, it's not like there haven't also been disappointments.

Here's how I see their thought processes at the start of the season:

1) I think they expected a big improvement from the top line. I did. Last year was an off your for both Gaudreau and Monahan. And I saw Ferland as an upgrade over the carousel we saw last year. They have been great, but I think an improvement was definitely expected.
2) They expected more progression from Bennett.
3) They expected more offense from the D. This is the most talented D core we have had over the last 4 years. And yet, here are the points from the D:

2014/15: 195 points
2015/16: 203
2016/17: 176
2017/18: 150 (pace)

Despite the D getting better and better over that period, the production has plummeted. Not all of the problems on this team are coaching, but this one is almost entirely a systems issue.

4) They recognized the weakness on RW and tried to improve it, bringing in Foo, resigning Versteeg (who plays both sides),and bringing in Jagr. Not an optimal solution, but also not ignoring it.

But the biggest thing for me (other than lack of production from the backend), is the overall disappointment of so many of the players. Who could have predicted this? And I mean ALL of this - any one or two guys could have bad years, but that typically means chances for others. This is an epidemic:

Frolik: 10 goals
Bennett: 9
Versteeg: 3
Jagr: 1
Brouwer: 4
Lazar: 2
Hathaway: 2
Stajan: 3
Fill ins (Mangiapane/Hrivik/Glass/Hamilton/Stewart): 0

That is almost not possible. We're talking about 3 lines of RW, plus some C, some LW, some PP time - probably 40-50 minutes a night of ice-time. And getting almost zero production. With Frolik out for a while, other guys got opportunities on Backlund's line. Someone had to play on the 3rd line. Some of those guys have gotten PP time. Someone, somewhere, has to get some goals at some point- they're getting opportunities.

The RW position, other than Ferland, has produced less than 20 goals for the entire season - from 3 lines! That is insane to the point of being almost impossible. Management would have penciled in at least 15 from Frolik alone. Never mind all RWs other than Ferland in total.

Yes, the team could use more scoring - we are a middle of the pack team offensively. But I don't think anyone could have predicted the complete lack of production from the bottom half of the roster. Or from the D.

Again, I circle back to the same point: the Flames should have gotten more offense from these players. And I think systems and coaching has had a big part to play in it.

In other words, I don't blame Treliving, or think he built a fundamentally flawed team.

[Corral]

Even for a pessimist like myself who was unsure this team would make the playoffs, this season is a bit of a set back. Treliving should be judged on how he responds to this season where it has become obvious this current group needs some tweaking if there is truly going to be a window of contention approaching.

[Southside]

Tre has done a great job locking up our core. He has made some poor decisions on free agency and dud PTO signings that he kept beyond the tryout. He's had some hits and misses on trades. His biggest mistake without question is the coach he hired. A good coach can take this team places even with the odd passenger.

[LIP MAN]

This team reminds me of Winnipeg a year ago.

[chummer]

Originally Posted by LIP MAN

This team reminds me of Winnipeg a year ago.

Yup was thinking the same thing, just need to add a few pieces.
Not over but it seems like it's just not our year....happens.

Need patience, like Cheveldayoff showed. I still think Treliving is the right guy for the job, offseason should be interesting.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by LIP MAN

This team reminds me of Winnipeg a year ago.

I dunno. I hope so. The Jets are stacked.
Their 4th line has 20 goals.

[wingmaker]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

I dunno. I hope so. The Jets are stacked.
Their 4th line has 20 goals.

For sure. Not sure the Flames are as well set up for a rebound as the Jets were a year ago. Also, the Jets had poor goaltending last year and the Flames have had good goaltending until the Smith injury. But like the Jets, the Flames have massively underperformed, have been undisciplined and had their mental toughness questioned, and have a coach that seems to have a system that his players can't settle into.

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by LIP MAN

This team reminds me of Winnipeg a year ago.

Incoming Gulutzan extension then? Barf.

[bubbsy]

The flames are not like the jets. The jets were patient in being mediocre and building a plethora of assets. The fan's biggest complaint was the over patience.

The flames have traded away multiple 1st round picks and multiple 2nd round picks way too early in the rebuild cycle.

If the flames don't do that Hamilton deal, may be we're watching barzal winning the Calder as a Flame this season. If the flames don't do the hamonic deal, we are probably about the same team but with some solid high draft assets to build this franchise up further.

The flames rushed out of the drafting and building stage of the rebuild without high end talent. They have been disappointed with Bennett but then got extremely lucky with Gaudreau. However, in a league that's all about skill and speed, they have failed to rebuild thru stocking up on such assets.

The flames are more like the senators than they are the jets. I don't mean that the flames are about to be complete garbage like the Sens of this year, but rather a team that has been stuck in mediocrity for a decade and not enough true stars to become a powerhouse.

[dirk diggler]

Agreed, this team has nowhere near the talent of the Jets. lots of holes and for a team that is built on defense, they are surprisingly soft and weak on the back end. lots of work to do

[EldrickOnIce]

I dunno. I'm not sure the Flames lack the high end talent. There is simply no depth up front.
I think Treliving gambled, when making the Hamonic move, that Bennett would become who we thought he would, and that's still failing miserably.

But yeah, in those terms, pretty much opposite of the Jets.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

People are significantly overplaying the Treliving comments in his interview with Mackenzie. Treliving didn't volunteer that on his own, he didn't offer it up. Mackenzie asked him a question, at the end of a very positive interview, that discussed - extensively - why the Flames were a top team. To finish the interview, Mackenzie asked the question 'what keeps you up at night?' to balance the interview.

Treliving could not answer with 'nothing, we're good'. That would have been stupid and arrogant. What he did was the right thing... he thought about it, and the came up with what he believed to be the weakest part of the team overall: goalscoring.

He did not say 'our lack of goalscoring keeps me up at night' as some people like to spin it. Anyway...

It may not have been the Mackenzie interview but...

SN: Do you have enough scoring? Or will better goaltending and defence mean you won’t need as many goals?

Treliving: Part B, you hope. If there’s one thing that keeps me up at night it is, are we going to get enough scoring. That’s what everybody talks about. The encouraging thing for me is, we’re not coming off a year where six guys had career years. If anything, we had guys under (achieve). That gives me some comfort. But you’re always worried about it. Whoever scores the most goals wins. That’s still how they keep track.
Do we have enough? We’ll see. We’ll see.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

The flames are not like the jets. The jets were patient in being mediocre and building a plethora of assets. The fan's biggest complaint was the over patience.

The flames have traded away multiple 1st round picks and multiple 2nd round picks way too early in the rebuild cycle.

If the flames don't do that Hamilton deal, may be we're watching barzal winning the Calder as a Flame this season. If the flames don't do the hamonic deal, we are probably about the same team but with some solid high draft assets to build this franchise up further.

The flames rushed out of the drafting and building stage of the rebuild without high end talent. They have been disappointed with Bennett but then got extremely lucky with Gaudreau. However, in a league that's all about skill and speed, they have failed to rebuild thru stocking up on such assets.

The flames are more like the senators than they are the jets. I don't mean that the flames are about to be complete garbage like the Sens of this year, but rather a team that has been stuck in mediocrity for a decade and not enough true stars to become a powerhouse.

The thing that really annoys me is the Hamilton first was 2015 a great draft year. Barzal was available relatively late in a deep draft. 2018 is supposed to be another good class with impact forwards.

CGY trades firsts in the worst years to do it (lol)!

Now I realize there were specific circumstances and hindsight is easy but I too didn't like trading firsts for a rebuilding club.

I like Treliving but he's made some head scratching decisions. I'm wondering if Burke or Edwards put heat on him to prioritize certain traits in players or speed up the rebuild.

I feel he has put too much value in intangibles. He paid too much for guys other teams were ready to let go for on ice performance (Hamonic, Lazar and Brouwer).

Perseverance and character are important but they should be lower on the list to speed and skill- still on the list though.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Pointman

I get what you are saying, but it could be argued, that if NYI insisted on not protecting the pick, Tre should have break down the negotiations. Otherwise he seems to end up being robbed by NYI.

The % chance of the Flames pick, even if they miss the playoffs, being a top pick, is still pretty slim.

If harmonic was the guy Tre really wanted, break]ing off negotiations on the chance the Flames missed the playoffs and that picking hitting the lottery was probably a poor choice.

There is a reasonable chance that if Tre did want you wanted, Harmonic would not be a Flame today.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

The thing that really annoys me is the Hamilton first was 2015 a great draft year. Barzal was available relatively late in a deep draft. 2018 is supposed to be another good class with impact forwards.

CGY trades firsts in the worst years to do it (lol)!

Now I realize there were specific circumstances and hindsight is easy but I too didn't like trading firsts for a rebuilding club.

I like Treliving but he's made some head scratching decisions. I'm wondering if Burke or Edwards put heat on him to prioritize certain traits in players or speed up the rebuild.

I feel he has put too much value in intangibles. He paid too much for guys other teams were ready to let go for on ice performance (Hamonic, Lazar and Brouwer).

Perseverance and character are important but they should be lower on the list to speed and skill- still on the list though.

Hamilton is a far more valuable player than Barzal...sometimes I wonder about CP

Top goal scoring D man in the league who plays on one of the top pairs statistically. Hamilton is not our problem