The trials and tribulations of Glen Gulutzan

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

That's fine, I take the opposite approach. I don't think a new coach changes much nor do I think a new coach masks this team's real problems.

I remember seeing Jets fans calling for a new coach after Paul Maurice failed to find much success for the last 4-5 years. Now they're a top 5 team with the same coaching staff and basically the same roster.

Oiler fans swore that Eakins was the worst coach of all time and that hiring a "good" coach in Todd McLellan would change things around. The next season they finish 29th, an even worse ranking and they had Connor McDavid as well.

Or how about the great Mike Babcock who finished dead last in 30th despite all the Stanley Cups and finals appearances. Same deal with Claude Julien, terrible now in Montreal after the great run with Boston who by the way, are dominant now with out him. Just tons of examples of how coaching doesn't do much. Others can disagree, but I've already heard all the counter arguments here and I haven't been converted.

This is where we disagree. I don't expect Gulutzan to mask their problems, I expect him to foster growth of their strengths AND try to mitigate problems from their weaknesses. Simple positive moves like Hamilton to the first PP were very beneficial and took forever to be tried. Brodie struggles moving from left D to right D, but Gulutzan continues to expose that weakness instead of foster the strength Brodie showed playing on he right side. Utilizing Troy Brower on the PP exposes a weakness, instead of fostering the strength of a player like Tkachuk. How long did it take Gulutzan to put Tkachuk on the first unit PP? How the heck is Brouwer still anywhere near our pp?

Further, I don't think showing a bad season from Babcock, during a rebuild year where his goal was not to win, but to foster proper habits in players, proves anything. He has won everywhere he has been. He is a good coach and affects the quality of his team's play.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Didn't the Kings fire Darryl Sutter who was a 2 time Stanley Cup winning coach who so many posters here yearn for? Well if John Stevens is a better coach then Darryl and Stevens is barely out performing Gulutzan, would that mean that Darryl is worse than Gulutzan?

Originally Posted by zamler

I don't know about you but I'd rather roll the dice on a guy that has 2 Cup rings as a coach. And happens to be the man that took the Flames to a Cup final.

I think Sutter is one of the best coaches in the league. His act might have gotten old in LA, but after all, he was there 6 years, and his team was going through some changes. That said, even in in his worst (last) year they were at .500 (with Peter Budaj playing the majority of games). The other year they missed the POs he was 40-27-15, just one point behind the miracle Flames (and they would have beaten Vancouver I bet).

[Mister Yamoto]

Let the next GM hire the next coach.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

This is where we disagree. I don't expect Gulutzan to mask their problems, I expect him to foster growth of their strengths AND try to mitigate problems from their weaknesses. Simple positive moves like Hamilton to the first PP were very beneficial and took forever to be tried. Brodie struggles moving from left D to right D, but Gulutzan continues to expose that weakness instead of foster the strength Brodie showed playing on he right side. Utilizing Troy Brower on the PP exposes a weakness, instead of fostering the strength of a player like Tkachuk. How long did it take Gulutzan to put Tkachuk on the first unit PP? How the heck is Brouwer still anywhere near our pp?

One month.

[The Boy Wonder]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

That's fine, I take the opposite approach. I don't think a new coach changes much nor do I think a new coach masks this team's real problems.

I remember seeing Jets fans calling for a new coach after Paul Maurice failed to find much success for the last 4-5 years. Now they're a top 5 team with the same coaching staff and basically the same roster.

Oiler fans swore that Eakins was the worst coach of all time and that hiring a "good" coach in Todd McLellan would change things around. The next season they finish 29th, an even worse ranking and they had Connor McDavid as well.

Or how about the great Mike Babcock who finished dead last in 30th despite all the Stanley Cups and finals appearances. Same deal with Claude Julien, terrible now in Montreal after the great run with Boston who by the way, are dominant now with out him. Just tons of examples of how coaching doesn't do much. Others can disagree, but I've already heard all the counter arguments here and I haven't been converted.

If coaching doesn’t do much and doesn’t matter then why do you care if they replace GG?

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

One month.

Brouwer had more pp time per game than Tkachuk in 2016/2017. But it has be reigned in more than I suspected his year.

Edit: point being it took a year for Tkachuk to supplant a completely useless Brouwer in PP usage.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

Brouwer had more pp time per game than Tkachuk in 2016/2017. But it has be reigned in more than I suspected his year.

Edit: point being it took a year for Tkachuk to supplant a completely useless Brouwer in PP usage.

Tkachuk was a rookie last year, and nowhere near what he is now. Brouwer was a significant off-season signing who averaged 20 goals/40 points. I think he was going to get a pretty long look.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Well first off I hope they don't see 29 years as something they need to make up for as that sounds Vancouver-ish.



They spent assets to build what looks like a very good top six, and a very good top four blueline.



Other assets went to find a goaltender that can carry the mail until their goalie prospects are ready.



The issue now is the bottom half of the forward group primarily. Since they have a second core of blueliners coming along I see that as the natural progression piece of assets to gain balance.



Centers and blueliners always have more value than wingers, and the Flames are missing wingers.



It's not a baby with the bath water thing. It's a progression.

I disagree that it’s a progression, it feels more like a misjudgement.

Almost all those picks went to get three D. This feels very much like the Sutter Flames that overloaded on D only to later publicly admit that the balance was wrong. In a good defensive system a Hamonic is a luxury not a necessity - those resources could have made a much bigger difference spent on F, especially for an org stacked with D prospects and barren on F prospects.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Tkachuk was a rookie last year, and nowhere near what he is now. Brouwer was a significant off-season signing who averaged 20 goals/40 points. I think he was going to get a pretty long look.

If the fact it took Gulutzan a year and a month to realize that Tkachuk was vastly superior to Brouwer in front of and behind the net isn't a condemnation of his flexibility as a coach then I don't know what is.

And it doesn't matter that Tkachuk has found a new gear this year. His level of play last year exceeded what Brouwer brought by leaps and bounds. The "he's a rookie" is a cop out excuse to play it safe and overuse vets.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

Let the next GM hire the next coach.

Treliving will be here for years. Gulutzan needs to go now.

This team is underperforming because the coach not the talent assembled.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I think Sutter is one of the best coaches in the league. His act might have gotten old in LA, but after all, he was there 6 years, and his team was going through some changes. That said, even in in his worst (last) year they were at .500 (with Peter Budaj playing the majority of games). The other year they missed the POs he was 40-27-15, just one point behind the miracle Flames (and they would have beaten Vancouver I bet).

Sure, but Terry Murray had that team running at 100 point seasons for the two previous years. Sutter also had a better lineup than Murray and much better than what the Flames are icing right now. Yes he got 2 cups, but the first one was the team catching absolute fire at the right time and the second was a Kings team that was loaded with talent.

I like Sutter but I think he has this mysticism around him.

[JohnnyB]

I like the players on the Flames right now. There's a group there that has some real talent and is the first time in a long time that the team has a youthful core that is really looking promising and with a high ceiling long-term. Every year will be competitive to make the playoffs, but there are players there that can take this team higher.

GG isn't getting it done. And he makes the team boring to watch.

I would be okay with Sutter making a return. No doubt he is a great coach. I often think that in that 2004 run, while Iggy was an absolute monster on the ice it was Sutter that was the real captain at the helm of that ship. His character is something that transfers over to his teams and it is the type of character the Flames could use.

[monkeyman]

Whenever I think about GG and TJ Brodie, this always comes to mind.

Homer at Bat, the Simpsons.
"With the score tied and bases loaded with two outs in the bottom of the ninth inning, Mr. Burns elects to field a right-handed hitter against a left-handed pitcher and pinch hits Homer for Strawberry."
credit to Wikipedia

[jlh2640]

Originally Posted by monkeyman

Whenever I think about GG and TJ Brodie, this always comes to mind.

Homer at Bat, the Simpsons.
"With the score tied and bases loaded with two outs in the bottom of the ninth inning, Mr. Burns elects to field a right-handed hitter against a left-handed pitcher and pinch hits Homer for Strawberry."
credit to Wikipedia

How about when Stajan and Brouwer are on the ice late in games

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by jlh2640

How about when Stajan and Brouwer are on the ice late in games

It reminds me of Brodie because of GG's insistence to play him on his off side.
Playing the odds, just like Mr. Burns.
I also picture GG telling Lazar to shave his sideburns.

[Fan in Exile]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Tkachuk was a rookie last year, and nowhere near what he is now. Brouwer was a significant off-season signing who averaged 20 goals/40 points. I think he was going to get a pretty long look.

Yeah, that would account for why it took Brock Boeser so long to supplant Loui Erickson on the Canucks' powerplay. Sorry but your constant apologism for every coaching and managing decision made by the organization undermines the credibility of almost anything you say.

[Duffalufagus]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

This is where we disagree. I don't expect Gulutzan to mask their problems, I expect him to foster growth of their strengths AND try to mitigate problems from their weaknesses. Simple positive moves like Hamilton to the first PP were very beneficial and took forever to be tried. Brodie struggles moving from left D to right D, but Gulutzan continues to expose that weakness instead of foster the strength Brodie showed playing on he right side. Utilizing Troy Brower on the PP exposes a weakness, instead of fostering the strength of a player like Tkachuk. How long did it take Gulutzan to put Tkachuk on the first unit PP? How the heck is Brouwer still anywhere near our pp?

Further, I don't think showing a bad season from Babcock, during a rebuild year where his goal was not to win, but to foster proper habits in players, proves anything. He has won everywhere he has been. He is a good coach and affects the quality of his team's play.

Great take and well articulated. As was the post you responded to. In my view, the fundamental disconnect for Flames fans is that they (we) think there is unharnessed talent here. And that the coaching staff is the reason it hasn’t been tapped into.

I agree that a better coach would get more out of this squad. But the delta is marginal IMO. The real issue is both a lack of talent and overvaluing the talent we currently have. Exhibit A: the defence. Gio. Hamilton in spurts. Then a whack of mediocrity. Brodie is a liability. Pains me to say it, but he is. Hamonic is a decent 2nd pairing d man that we way overpaid for.

Point is that this team is just not deep. The bottom six is not playoff caliber. Not even close, really. There are huge holes on this team that would handicap any coach. Fact is that Smith held this house of cards together all year. He goes down and the wheels fall off.

Is there better coaching out there? For sure. Is coaching the reason this team looks like a pretender? Nope. The issues on this team are organizational.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by zamler

If Gully gets fired what will you think of that?

I don’t really care, he’d likely be replaced another clone of himself and we’d probably have to go through another early seaso. adjustment period where we suck.

Personally though, I think he got a raw deal. The single biggest reason why everyone is flipping out is because of expectations. Sky high expectations that was never going to be reached. Treliving spent our 1st, 2nd and 2nd on a defensemen with 1 goal on the season and hasn’t been the defensive monster we expected.

Treliving absolutely set his coach up for failure in this situation because he overpaid big time. I would’ve been just as happy bringing back Derek Engelland who did some good work here. If Hamonic wasn’t acquired, we’d still have our picks and this place wouldn’t be the war zone that it is right now.

[Duffalufagus]

Good lord, a 1st, 2nd and 2nd is off the charts bad value for Hamonic. Makes me ill just reading it

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Locke

No, but sometimes an injection of new blood, a new voice, a new approach and new ideas might lift the team to another level when the current voice isnt getting it done and they're in a dogfight for a playoff spot.

It wouldnt be historic or anything.

I’ve already gone over this too many times. This sometimes, maybe, what if crap is all just a 50/50 shot in the dark. Maybe we do make the playoffs, or maybe we fall into the abyss like the Avs didnwhen Roy left or maybe this roster just isn’t good enough no matter what coach is in the system.

Fact is, 2 coaches have failed with this roster and I’ll bet a 3rd will fail just as hard. This roster is not elite. We have some elite pieces, but pieces of a puzzle doesn’t make the picture complete. We don’t need new voices, we need a new philosophy. Less muckers and grinders who love the penalty box and more speed and skill to make teams pay when they’re in the box.