The trials and tribulations of Glen Gulutzan

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

If they have a "dummies guide to hockey" then you need to go buy it now. One of the worst posts of all time. What's worse, 2 posters "thank you" for it. Maybe you can get a discount if you buy 3 books?

If I could thank twice, I would.
I leave now, cheered up.
Thank you

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by The Boy Wonder

I think there is something to this. The flames seem to be taking an extra half second to think about where they need to be, who they should be passing to, who they should be covering, etc.

A system that demands mistake free hockey tends to lead to a lot of second guessing.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by Flames_F.T.W

That, and he needed some more scoring and Tre didn't do anything at the deadline.

I think that is a strong indication on how Treliving feels about this year's team and where the coaching is going to take them. Why give up the future to maybe make the playoffs?

I'm sure Treliving is planning on a coaching change, so why waste prospects that could be helpful in the next year or two?

[mikeecho]

Originally Posted by sa226

First of all, this off season, I would be open to finding a new head coach.

Yesterday they had a guy from Winnipeg on the Fan 960 talking about the Jets and the differences from last year to this year. How last year the team was a disaster, a team that was supposed to be on the up and up turned into a boring tire fire that took tom many penalties. Not to mention crappy goaltending. This season they are in contender status.

He was asked why he thought that was. The guy said something that I thought was weird, but maybe there is some truth to that. He said that it seemed like it took the group of players a good 4 years to learn the system. That now things have come together, decision making is instinctual they all know what they have to do, they have to keep being told what to do. As well the consistency of Cheveldayoff sticking with his group of young players paid off.

I don't know if that is a bunch of hooey or not. But I see similarities between the Jets of last year and the Flames of this year. Its pretty easy to grab a pitchfork and join the angry mob, but I would not be surprised in the least if Gulutzan is back next season.

The difference for me is that the Jets made a concerted effort to play young kids above their heads in key roles as part of a long term development plan. They weren't going for it last year. The coach took the heat for it, but he was executing a mandate from the GM to take the long play and develop a team for the future.

The Flames are clearly going for it... and struggling. If it fails, I don't see any of it helping the team take it to the next level last year.

[Johnny Makarov]

I voted not to fire him in the poll, but if he loses an 8 straight to the Oilers, I want him GONE!!!! 7 straight to that team up north is pathetic!!!

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

How is it absurd. I've been to many games, Vegas stands out, where the opposing coach is constantly talking to his players, giving direction, and our coach does nothing of the sort. I don't see how that's making stuff up.

Because you are reacting to the odd camera shot of the bench. You have no clue how often this does or doesn't happen for an entire game.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Ryan Coke

I have heard from people who sit near the benches that GG rarely is talking to his players during the game, whereas most of the opposing coaches are much more active in engaging their players. I don’t have that first hand info, but it does line up with what we see on tv. I don’t recall any clips of him actively talking with players during the game. Do you have any evidence contrary to that?

We have also heard from members of the media that some other top teams have come through, and how fast their practices are run. A completely different pace to GG’s practices, which aligns with the slow pace of game they play. Do you disagree with that?.

I don't agree or disagree because I don't know. I will say that I have relationships with members of the media who say the opposite - the the practices are intense. So beats me
I'm not going to demand a guy gets fired on anecdotal and hearsay

[Flamenspiel]

I don't know about the comparisons to the Jets last year, i think the Flames are similar to the Jets last year(they have had the young guys play). The primary issue and difference is that the GM traded away our first and second picks and did not lottery protect the 1st pick. That move could end up being a a franchise altering decision and could be a mistake that cancels out everything else that was done correctly. It can happen in business, it can also happen in a relationship, and of course it can happen in sports.

Unfortunatly I can't help thinking about the deal the Leafs(and i am not a Leafs fan) made back in the day when they picked up Tom Kurvers for the pick that ended up being Hall of Famer Scott Neidermayer. I certainly hope that the Flames finish well, even if they don't make the playoffs because a 10-14th pick is big difference from a 1 or 2 pick.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by nik-

Why don't we just look at a two season window rather than the microcosm of time outs. The dude is completely mediocre and it's not working. You can talk about holding players accountable all you want, but you're not going to trade them all and this coach has shown nothing to instill confidence that he's not the problem. Mediocrity doesn't get the benefit of the doubt.

What do you guys defending this guy so hard even see? Please explain why this coach deserves any more rope. Two seasons now, the same thing. The signs were there by the end of the first and nothing has changed.

Here is why I defend him
- I largely view a lot of the criticism to be based on anecdotal evidence, hearsay and narratives that are poorly supported but people have just chosen to believe.
- As an extension of this, I view this to be a witch hunt and scape goatism. I’m not a fan of that. It reminds a lot of what happened to Playfair who I viewed as a good coach not given a fair shake
- I think that coaches get too much blame overall. I’m of the view that it is on the players to execute. Coaches are the easy one to blame so they take it
- I value stability within key roles and think that teams that are changing coaches and GMs constantly suffer because of it. The Flames included.
- I think there are some fair criticisms of GG, namely player usage and inability to figure out, with his ACs special teams, which are vital to success in the NHL now. I’m not disagreeing on those points
- I really get frustrated when people slam a coach over things like facial expressions, looking down on the bench, etc. I think all of that is unfair.
- Overall in my view I see a team that generally has outplayed other teams most nights, and the underlying metrics support this. Their inability to finish though is both a combination of bad luck, and lack of skill within the forwards. Neither I can blame GG for. The team SHOULD be better than its record based on the metrics and eye test
- That being said, I also don’t think the team is distinctly more talented than most other teams. The Smith injury has set them back, but in general they are tracking to finish close to where I thought they would

Those are all my opinions, and what I struggle with is how the other side gets so upset or can’t even grasp that someone may not share the view that GG is the primary cause of the performance. Both sides have fair points to make.
In my view if they miss the playoffs you have to evaluate the coach, but you also need to evaluate the make up of the team and the roster. Dumping the coach while not addressing the clear gaps in the line up would be foolish.

[tkflames]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

I don't know about the comparisons to the Jets last year, i think the Flames are similar to the Jets last year(they have had the young guys play). The primary issue and difference is that the GM traded away our first and second picks and did not lottery protect the 1st pick. This could be franchise altering....and could be a mistake that cancels out everything else that was done correctly.

I certainly hope that the Flames finish well, even if they don't make the playoffs because a 10-14th pick is big difference from a 1 or 2 pick.

This is a sunk cost, whether that 1st rounder is a first overall or 14th overall, makes us feel better about the trade, it does not alter anything for the organization.

The Jets have been a good team on paper for a few years with terrible goal tending. After several years of development, their patience with goaltending is starting to pay off this year. However (and this may come back to haunt me), I don't see this team doing a lot of damage in the playoffs. Not because they don't have the horses, but they have similar issues to us behind the bench with what is a notoriously undisciplined team that has in the past responded poorly to the emotion of the game.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

I don't know about the comparisons to the Jets last year, i think the Flames are similar to the Jets last year(they have had the young guys play). The primary issue and difference is that the GM traded away our first and second picks and did not lottery protect the 1st pick. That could be could be franchise altering and could be a mistake that cancels out everything else that was done correctly. It can happen in business, it can also happen in a relationship...

In addition certainly GG will be let go at the end of the season, his balance of work looks weaker then Hartley before he was fired. I certainly hope that the Flames finish well, even if they don't make the playoffs because a 10-14th pick is big difference from a 1 or 2 pick.

This is a poor way to look at it.
If the Flames had kept the pick their record and place in the standings would almost for sure be different. Therefore the lottery results will be different.
If the ball spits out the Flames with a top pick one should not look at it as that the GM traded that specific pick.
Moreover, I can't grasp how this would be "franchise altering" given they still have the player they traded the pick for.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by Wild GM

Because you are reacting to the odd camera shot of the bench. You have no clue how often this does or doesn't happen for an entire game.

"I've been to many games"

Which part of this has anything to do with TV viewing.

[Ryan Coke]

Originally Posted by Wild GM

I don't agree or disagree because I don't know. I will say that I have relationships with members of the media who say the opposite - the the practices are intense. So beats me
I'm not going to demand a guy gets fired on anecdotal and hearsay

But aren’t you advocating keeping him based on the same anecdotal evidence?

I get what you’re saying, most of us are only getting a partial view of what really goes on. And we are forming an opinion based on that limited perspective. Thankfully the guy who actually has the power for his opinion to make the change or not can get much more information, and hopefully he makes a sound decision.

So while I am happy to allow for my limited perspective, it is based on what I hear and see from him and those around him, and the results over a prolonged period-2 years.

And anyone advocating for him to remain as the coach is making that opinion based on the same limited information....he could be even worse than it appears for all we know.

[kukkudo]

Could GG go down as the only Flames coach who never beat Edmonton? ( I don't expect them to beat the Oilers in the upcoming games)

[tkflames]

For some reason - quoting is not working for your specific post, but below are my thoughts on the valid points you raised as someone on the opposite side of the fence.

Here is why I defend him
- I largely view a lot of the criticism to be based on anecdotal evidence, hearsay and narratives that are poorly supported but people have just chosen to believe. I believe this is cherry picking of posts that support this narrative. There has been excellent analysis done in this thread on the power play approach, player usage, lack of creativity in both break outs and entering the oppositions zone. The core data point that has not been investigated with data is how the teams responds to adversity versus other team, but visually I think we can agree that this team (whether coach or players) used to have a confidence when down in the third period and is now distracted by adversity in the game. Last night, they hard 30 minutes to regain momentum and there was no response.
- As an extension of this, I view this to be a witch hunt and scape goatism. I’m not a fan of that. It reminds a lot of what happened to Playfair who I viewed as a good coach not given a fair shakeI agree that some of us (myself included), did not like him from the start and have a bias toward finding flaws. The key issue that he has no success in his history to counter this argument. There was always an inherent risk in hiring an inexperienced coach for a young core. The team and coach is trying to grow and gain experience together, but I fail to see a safety net of experience that will right the ship when things don't go well.

- I think that coaches get too much blame overall. I’m of the view that it is on the players to execute. Coaches are the easy one to blame so they take it I agree.
- I value stability within key roles and think that teams that are changing coaches and GMs constantly suffer because of it. The Flames included. I agree - this team desperately needs a coach that will be here for 5-7 years. This is why it didn't make sense to hire an unknown commodity in GG 2 years ago.

- I think there are some fair criticisms of GG, namely player usage and inability to figure out, with his ACs special teams, which are vital to success in the NHL now. I’m not disagreeing on those points I agree - I believe where we disagree is that this is a major issue for me.

- I really get frustrated when people slam a coach over things like facial expressions, looking down on the bench, etc. I think all of that is unfair. I agree.

- Overall in my view I see a team that generally has outplayed other teams most nights, and the underlying metrics support this. Their inability to finish though is both a combination of bad luck, and lack of skill within the forwards. Neither I can blame GG for. The team SHOULD be better than its record based on the metrics and eye test. I agree. Where we disagree is that I believe the "luck" is influenced by confidence. I believe GG has an influence on that. If anything, the above noted item supports that Tre has done his job.

- That being said, I also don’t think the team is distinctly more talented than most other teams. The Smith injury has set them back, but in general they are tracking to finish close to where I thought they would. I agree - I believe they are underperforming my expectations by 4-6 points (right around 98-102 is what I expected). The west is extremely flat and each of the 10 or so teams from 2 - 12 all have holes in their line-up and game. This is a salary cap NHL - you can no longer build the perfect team. Having said that, I don't believe that our points are disproportionate to our team this year. There are an equal number of games this year where I have felt like we stole points to where I felt like we deserved a better fate.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Ryan Coke

But aren’t you advocating keeping him based on the same anecdotal evidence?
.

I'm not actually advocating to keep him. I'm advocating for a proper and full review of performance once the season has ended.
If you look back have I said anywhere that they should keep him as coach?
I'm challenging opinions that I think are poorly formed and unfair.
I have yet to form my own strong opinion on what should happen but that opinion will largely not be formed until the season wraps.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

"I've been to many games"

Which part of this has anything to do with TV viewing.

"I've been to many games" is the same thing in my view unless you are sitting there staring at the coach the entire game.
It is anecdotal and likely highly influenced by your already formed opinions about the coach.

[The Boy Wonder]

Originally Posted by Wild GM

Here is why I defend him
- I largely view a lot of the criticism to be based on anecdotal evidence, hearsay and narratives that are poorly supported but people have just chosen to believe.
- As an extension of this, I view this to be a witch hunt and scape goatism. I’m not a fan of that. It reminds a lot of what happened to Playfair who I viewed as a good coach not given a fair shake
- I think that coaches get too much blame overall. I’m of the view that it is on the players to execute. Coaches are the easy one to blame so they take it
- I value stability within key roles and think that teams that are changing coaches and GMs constantly suffer because of it. The Flames included.
- I think there are some fair criticisms of GG, namely player usage and inability to figure out, with his ACs special teams, which are vital to success in the NHL now. I’m not disagreeing on those points
- I really get frustrated when people slam a coach over things like facial expressions, looking down on the bench, etc. I think all of that is unfair.
- Overall in my view I see a team that generally has outplayed other teams most nights, and the underlying metrics support this. Their inability to finish though is both a combination of bad luck, and lack of skill within the forwards. Neither I can blame GG for. The team SHOULD be better than its record based on the metrics and eye test
- That being said, I also don’t think the team is distinctly more talented than most other teams. The Smith injury has set them back, but in general they are tracking to finish close to where I thought they would

Those are all my opinions, and what I struggle with is how the other side gets so upset or can’t even grasp that someone may not share the view that GG is the primary cause of the performance. Both sides have fair points to make.
In my view if they miss the playoffs you have to evaluate the coach, but you also need to evaluate the make up of the team and the roster. Dumping the coach while not addressing the clear gaps in the line up would be foolish.

It is definitely not all on GG but he has to be the leader of this team. The underlying metrics say this team is better than their record? Well you know what doesn’t say they are better than their record? Their record.

All that matters is winning, especially at this time of year.

As Al Davis said «#just win baby#» and unfortunately this team doesn’t do that for myriad reasons including a coach who doesn’t adapt his game tactics in game until it’s too late and the other team has also changed it up, and who insists on using Troy Brouwer in every situation possible (which is absolutely insane if you are trying the same thing with him and expecting something other than what you’ve gotten)

It’s those types of stubborn decisions that are driving the fire GG argument and they are valid

Yes the players aren’t playing great but is that because GGs system is too complex? I honestly don’t know...

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by Wild GM

"I've been to many games" is the same thing in my view unless you are sitting there staring at the coach the entire game.
It is anecdotal and likely highly influenced by your already formed opinions about the coach.

Your response was that I couldn't know because I only know what the TV cameras show us. I pointed out that it was my observation from being at the games.

You can say I am wrong, but I have yet to read one post by anyone on this forum who says they see GG talking to his team repeatedly during the game.

It's also interesting that you say any complaint about GG is anecdotal, but there are clear tangible examples of his baffling coaching decisions.

What is not anecdotal are the results of his coaching tenure. 4 years as a head coach, and if we miss he playoffs this year (likely) he will have a 25% playoff appearance rate, and have never won an NHL playoff game as a head coach.

His results are poor. The people using anecdotes are the people who want to keep him. He is not a successful head coach and keeping him around for the sake of consistency is a cop out because you aren't willing to take a chance to make things better.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

@ tkflames. I can't quote your post either.

With all due respect to whichever posts you are referring to, there has not been excellent analysis on CP with supporting evidence as to GG sucks.

Beyond the fact that it is highly unlikely we have good enough hockey minds to outcoach an NHL coach (regardless of how bad you think he might be), CP as a medium limits how good of an analysis can be done. I think at most I've seen some people post screenshots of plays and regardless of how good the analysis is, that's just not sufficient to provide quality analysis that proves that GG sucks as a coach.

That's not to say that there isn't good analysis on CP but let's not get ahead of ourselves here. Some good internet hockey chat is a long way from claiming we have better NHL coaches on CP than the actual NHL coaches.