[Trade] McDonagh and JT Miller to TB for Hajek, Howden, Namestnikov, 2018 1st, cond 2nd

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Did you read the post you responded to? Flashwalken wasn't talking about this trade he was speaking to the difference in draft pick accumulation and picking between the two organizations.

He was basically breaking down the difference between contender strategy and mediocre teams strategy, and although I love the Hamilton trade and would keep that one, he's likely right that in a league where you need to accumulate picks and play the odds that some will turn into stars, the mediocre teams (like Calgary unfortunately) try to speed things up and get burnt.

(he didn't read it)

[dino7c]

I read it...its just pointless

Yeah Tampa is the #1 team in the NHL...every team wishes they were in that position not just the Flames

Not worried about the Flames "competing with Tampa" though

[ben voyonsdonc]

The question isn’t about how do we compete with the Lightning - it is how can we become the next iteration of the Lightning?

[dino7c]

Lets see if Tampa gets past the 2nd round before we crown them

[TheoFleury]

Originally Posted by ben voyonsdonc

The question isn’t about how do we compete with the Lightning - it is how can we become the next iteration of the Lightning?

Draft a Hedman and a Stamkos? Other than that, I'd say things are close. A Vasilevskiy wouldn't hurt either.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by ben voyonsdonc

The question isn’t about how do we compete with the Lightning - it is how can we become the next iteration of the Lightning?

Yeah exactly. They've had some pretty clear strategy, one that some other contenders have followed as well (Winnipeg). Of course they're not all exactly the same, but there's a distinct difference between the top teams willing to accumulate many picks and rely on some becoming stars, along with being willing to pull the chute on a season and get more draft picks.

There's a bunch of Calgary's, too, and we're generally all quite mediocre because our build is much more rigid and linear.

1. Suck, draft a few guys high. 2 See improvement and immediately start to fill in holes using picks as currency 3. Fill in more hills with questionable free agent signings. 4. Struggle to elevate to contender status.

Why Dino doesn't care about that or want to emulate that in any way is weird. You want to learn from the best and hopefully become the best, not trot along with a rigid strategy.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by TheoFleury

Draft a Hedman and a Stamkos? Other than that, I'd say things are close. A Vasilevskiy wouldn't hurt either.

1st, 2nd, and 3rd overall...higher than our Franchise high

draft in the top 10 5 times in a decade

[Flamenspiel]

I agree with some of this(Yzerman is a great GM) but traditionally Tampa has tanked better then Calgary, its happened often enough that I don't think its a coincidance. Hedman(1stOA), Stamos(1stOA), Drouin(3rdOA). They seem to follow a one year in, one year out strategy that is either lucky or sinister.

[TheoFleury]

Originally Posted by dino7c

1st, 2nd, and 3rd overall...higher than our Franchise high

draft in the top 10 5 times in a decade

Exactly. Sucks but it seems that is how you get to truly elite status these days. Of course it's not fool proof as Edmonton has proven time and time again.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

I agree with some of this(Yzerman is a great GM) but traditionally Tampa has tanked better then Calgary, its happened often enough that I don't think its a coincidance. Hedman(1stOA), Stamos(1stOA), Drouin(3rdOA). They seem to follow a one year in, one year out strategy that is either lucky or sinister.

It's dynamic along with some luck for sure.

Like I said, some of these teams aren't afraid to pull the chute on a season despite upward trajectory and acquire more high draft picks.

You need to be really accumulating decent picks for a few years to become a contender, you can't just do it once or twice and then start building around a couple guys. That's what Canadian teams typically do because their fans and media are impatient.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

I agree with some of this(Yzerman is a great GM) but traditionally Tampa has tanked better then Calgary, its happened often enough that I don't think its a coincidance. Hedman(1stOA), Stamos(1stOA), Drouin(3rdOA). They seem to follow a one year in, one year out strategy that is either lucky or sinister.

Picking up Bishop for Conacher helped a tad.

[flamesfan1297]

Tampa looks scary good now, and they didn't really give up anything of significance in this deal

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by dino7c

They have drafted in the top 10 five times in 10 years

including 1st, 2nd, and 3rd overall...I think its easier to tank every other year in a non hockey market

You can't develop a top team just by tanking and getting a bunch of top 5 picks. Just look at Edmonton, Buffalo, and Florida.

Some Lightning drafted and developed players who were not top 5 picks:

Palat (drafted 208 OA)
Killorn (77)
Koekkoek (10)
Kucherov (58)
Namestnikov (27)
Point (79)
Vasileskiy (19)
Gourde (undrafted)
Johnson (undrafted)

That list includes the Lightning's 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, and 10th top scoring players. They are clearly not a team that has relied on tanking and top-5 picks to build a strong roster.

[sureLoss]

Not trying to beat a dead horse, but this deal also underlines how bad the Bouwmeester to Blues trade was.

[guzzy]

let's be honest, everything Feaster did outside of drafting Gaudreau, was hot garbage. Regehr - no return, Iggy - no return, Bouwmeester - no return.

[Flamenspiel]

Originally Posted by jayswin

It's dynamic along with some luck for sure.

Like I said, some of these teams aren't afraid to pull the chute on a season despite upward trajectory and acquire more high draft picks.

You need to be really accumulating decent picks for a few years to become a contender, you can't just do it once or twice and then start building around a couple guys. That's what Canadian teams typically do because their fans and media are impatient.

Fans? I don't agree with those kinds of comments pro or con. With the exception of Ottawa, Canadian fans are more patient and continue to attend games when their teams play bad. Fans have no impact on results, fan boards like this tend to overemphasize the impact of "fans" on the game.

How was Nashville attendance before they became a good team? How about Tampa and those 15 dollar tickets? I would argue that ownership and management of the US teams tend to be more patient, perhaps financially the US owners are generally on more solid ground.

Media is a different story.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

You can't develop a top team just by tanking and getting a bunch of top 5 picks. Just look at Edmonton, Buffalo, and Florida.

Some Lightning drafted and developed players who were not top 5 picks:

Palat (drafted 208 OA)
Killorn (77)
Koekkoek (10)
Kucherov (58)
Namestnikov (27)
Point (79)
Vasileskiy (19)
Gourde (undrafted)
Johnson (undrafted)

That list includes the Lightning's 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, and 10th top scoring players. They are clearly not a team that has relied on tanking and top-5 picks to build a strong roster.

Come on now...they have made some nice picks but also tanked pretty hard at times. Sure they are far better than Buffalo, Edmonton, Florida, ect...but that isn't saying much.

Without their tank picks they are nowhere near the team they are now...

[Since1984]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

Not trying to beat a dead horse, but this deal also underlines how bad the Bouwmeester to Blues trade was.

You can only make the trades that are offered to you. Feaster got the most he could oout of both the Iginla and Bouwmeester trades...if there were better trades on the table...we would be complaining about those ones.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Since1984

You can only make the trades that are offered to you. Feaster got the most he could oout of both the Iginla and Bouwmeester trades...if there were better trades on the table...we would be complaining about those ones.

lol or you could be a better negotiator "give me your best offer and we have a deal"

Also Jaybo's contract wasn't even expiring and Jay trades him a couple days before the deadline?

WTF was the rush? he had another year to do the deal

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

You can't develop a top team just by tanking and getting a bunch of top 5 picks. Just look at Edmonton, Buffalo, and Florida.

Some Lightning drafted and developed players who were not top 5 picks:

Palat (drafted 208 OA)
Killorn (77)
Koekkoek (10)
Kucherov (58)
Namestnikov (27)
Point (79)
Vasileskiy (19)
Gourde (undrafted)
Johnson (undrafted)

That list includes the Lightning's 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, and 10th top scoring players. They are clearly not a team that has relied on tanking and top-5 picks to build a strong roster.

Yep, and out of that group four players in particular stand out:

Kucherov is a Hart candidate.

Vasilevskiy is a Vezina candidate.

Point and Johnson are both players who may very well be considered "number one centers", they are very complete two-way players with a lot of offense. Finding this caliber of center past a top five pick is not only rare, but extremely so.

Then throw in Palat, Gourde, Namestnikov, Killorn for good measure.

Tampa is a team who drafted well, tanked well, AND trades well. They're simply the class of the NHL as an organization.