The trials and tribulations of Glen Gulutzan

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Kjesse

He made some poor moves near the end of his GM tenure, but Kiprusoff for a 2nd was a stroke of genius (and sure, some luck). Adding Warrener, Reinprecht, Niemenan, Simon, were just good moves. In 03-04 Sutter was on his game.

Sutter was a very good GM for the pre-lockout NHL. He understood chemistry, grit, and veteran character.

He was a very bad GM for the post-lockout NHL. He overvalued chemistry, grit, and veteran character in a league that was suddenly all about speed and youth. His poor drafting, impatience, and distrust of young players handicapped the franchise for the better part of a decade.

[nemanja2306]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Sutter was a very good GM for the pre-lockout NHL. He understood chemistry, grit, and veteran character.

He was a very bad GM for the post-lockout NHL. He overvalued chemistry, grit, and veteran character in a league that was suddenly all about speed and youth. His poor drafting, impatience, and distrust of young players handicapped the franchise for the better part of a decade.

I agree. Although, one has to wonder if he was forced from the owners to go for it at the expense of prospects and futures.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by nemanja2306

I agree. Although, one has to wonder if he was forced from the owners to go for it at the expense of prospects and futures.

. Sutter doesn't seem like a guy who would be forced to do anything he didn't want to do.

[nemanja2306]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

It's an 82 game season, naturally goaltenders will steal games for your team. A lot of opposition goaltenders and even their backups have stolen games for their team against us as well. It's definitely not just the Flames, that was my main point. We haven't been as bad as everyone thinks, the coaching isn't as bad as everyone thinks and we're facing the same type of problems every team faces in a long season.

To your second point, we gave up a lot for Hamonic. But he hasn't been nearly as impactful as I personally thought he was going to be. He doesn't have a great offensive skillset and it shows with his 1 goal this season. Been solid in the defensive end, but the addition of him doesn't make us a contender. He's just a slight upgrade over losing Derek Engelland.

Treliving also stated in the summer that he thought scoring goals was going to be this team's weakest link and it has come true. We rely on 2 lines to win us virtually every game. Other teams have the type of depth to have 3 or 4 lines consistently contributing in a meaningful way. We don't have that. We have a rookie center who's hit the rookie wall hard and a 4th line that's under performed compared to last season. Not enough internal help.

I'll be disappointed if we miss the playoffs. But I didn't think we'd be a contender anyway. I thought we'd be a bubble playoff team with a chance to win a round and that's where I think we are. We've had a tough schedule up to date and now this is the time where the team needs to make up ground and win. With no passengers and maybe even a small trade deadline addition, I think we can get hot and get in. Mike Smith has the ability to steal a round as well, so I definitely haven't given up on the season.

I agree, that's my point. There is no use in saying "well, if Frolik didn't make that dumb play we would have 2 more points", as it's something that happens to every team.

Hamonic has been fine for a while now. The trouble is, we assumed that Brodie would return to his old self which hasn't happened. I'm not saying it is that, but Brodie became a lot less effective since GG took over and forced him on the left side.

As for the bolded, when you give up so much for a guy like Hamonic, you'd expect your team to be a contender. I believe that was the thought process of Treliving. To do that and still be on the bubble has to be disappointing.

[Itse]

I'll just leave this here.

http://www.espn.com/nhl/columns/stor...rge&id=2291711

Disregard the fact that he's never been presented with the Jack Adams Trophy or mentioned in connection with World Cups or Olympics or any of the other jobs that other, most fashionable coaches get offered.

Darryl Sutter is the smartest man in hockey.

An a different note...

Originally Posted by GioforPM

. Sutter doesn't seem like a guy who would be forced to do anything he didn't want to do.

True, but I wouldn't put it above him to basically go "You want me to do what? You don't believe me when I say we shouldn't? Fine, let's do this. I can always find another job."

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

It's an 82 game season, naturally goaltenders will steal games for your team. A lot of opposition goaltenders and even their backups have stolen games for their team against us as well. It's definitely not just the Flames, that was my main point. We haven't been as bad as everyone thinks, the coaching isn't as bad as everyone thinks and we're facing the same type of problems every team faces in a long season.

To your second point, we gave up a lot for Hamonic. But he hasn't been nearly as impactful as I personally thought he was going to be. He doesn't have a great offensive skillset and it shows with his 1 goal this season. Been solid in the defensive end, but the addition of him doesn't make us a contender. He's just a slight upgrade over losing Derek Engelland.

Treliving also stated in the summer that he thought scoring goals was going to be this team's weakest link and it has come true. We rely on 2 lines to win us virtually every game. Other teams have the type of depth to have 3 or 4 lines consistently contributing in a meaningful way. We don't have that. We have a rookie center who's hit the rookie wall hard and a 4th line that's under performed compared to last season. Not enough internal help.

I'll be disappointed if we miss the playoffs. But I didn't think we'd be a contender anyway. I thought we'd be a bubble playoff team with a chance to win a round and that's where I think we are. We've had a tough schedule up to date and now this is the time where the team needs to make up ground and win. With no passengers and maybe even a small trade deadline addition, I think we can get hot and get in. Mike Smith has the ability to steal a round as well, so I definitely haven't given up on the season.

I was reading this and thinking:

Thats right, except we have in Brodie, Giordano and Hamilton some of the most offensively talented blueliners around.

Who arent allowed to do anything.

We are struggling for goals and relying on 2 lines because the GM built the team to get some offence from the back-end and the coach isnt letting them.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Sutter was a very good GM for the pre-lockout NHL. He understood chemistry, grit, and veteran character.

He was a very bad GM for the post-lockout NHL. He overvalued chemistry, grit, and veteran character in a league that was suddenly all about speed and youth. His poor drafting, impatience, and distrust of young players handicapped the franchise for the better part of a decade.

I think Sutter's motives were more complicated, and his downfall is not necessarily attributable to a certain line of thinking. I totally agree with your assessment of his performance but to say he overvalued grit? Maybe in his drafting, but this is the GM that picked up Huselius for pennies.

Maybe he just needed to be paired with an equally strong personality who could challenge some of his decisions. Because a few of those decisions were just awful.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by nemanja2306

I agree, that's my point. There is no use in saying "well, if Frolik didn't make that dumb play we would have 2 more points", as it's something that happens to every team.

Hamonic has been fine for a while now. The trouble is, we assumed that Brodie would return to his old self which hasn't happened. I'm not saying it is that, but Brodie became a lot less effective since GG took over and forced him on the left side.

As for the bolded, when you give up so much for a guy like Hamonic, you'd expect your team to be a contender. I believe that was the thought process of Treliving. To do that and still be on the bubble has to be disappointing.

Yes exactly, my main point in the reply was that individual mistakes have cost us games this season and that it's not coaching. You can't coach split second decisions from every player who are reading and reacting to what's in front of them.

As for Brodie's struggles, he's definitely had a trying year. But Treliving went out and specifically wanted Hamonic for the contract and character that he brings. That move forced Brodie to the left side because we literally don't have anyone else experienced enough to play on the left side. It's not really a coaching decision to put Brodie on that side as it is more a necessity and architecture (3LHD, 3 RHD).

That was probably Treliving's intent. But when you look at other rosters and the forward depth of other teams, it makes sense why we're not at the same level. The Jets for instance have an incredibly deep and talented roster and are sitting just 4 wins ahead of us. If we had as many skilled forwards like Scheifele, Wheeler, Laine, Ehlers, Little, Connor, Perreault then we'd probably have those extra 4 wins or more.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

. Sutter doesn't seem like a guy who would be forced to do anything he didn't want to do.

This is idolatry.

[Flash Walken]

The terrible decisions followed this franchise around long after Sutter left.

With the continued benefit of hindsight I find it next to impossible to conclude anything other than ownership is a major hurdle for any and all flames executives.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

The terrible decisions followed this franchise around long after Sutter left.

With the continued benefit of hindsight I find it next to impossible to conclude anything other than ownership is a major hurdle for any and all flames executives.

This is demonization.

[browna]

Sutter’s general mandate was to make the playoffs.

He was given/earned the trust to be able to do it his way, no questions really asked, for a few years.

When the owners, or a particular owner, thought that Sutter’s results weren’t enough and given his carte blanche without really having to justify the moves he made, the owners started getting doubtful. For some reason they seeked out a yes-man who had been out of work for 5 years with the odd blog in the hockey news, and he started his detective work as AGM. Of course, he told the owners what they wanted to hear, and promised to return some of the decision making back to them when he got the full time gig, which appealed to said owners.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by browna

Sutter’s general mandate was to make the playoffs.

He was given/earned the trust to be able to do it his way. When the owners, or a particular owner, thought that Sutter’s results weren’t enough and given his carte blanche without really having to justify the moves he made, the owners started getting doubtful. For some reason they seeked out a yes-man who had been out of work for 5 years and he started his detective work as AGM and told the owners what they wanted to hear and promised to return some of the decision making back to them when he got the full time gig.

and then he went on tv after the flames had been out of it for 3 or 4 years at that point and proclaimed he had gotten his "marching orders" direct from Murray Edwards that the flames WILL make the playiffs the following Season. (They didn't).

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Locke

I was reading this and thinking:

Thats right, except we have in Brodie, Giordano and Hamilton some of the most offensively talented blueliners around.

Who arent allowed to do anything.

We are struggling for goals and relying on 2 lines because the GM built the team to get some offence from the back-end and the coach isnt letting them.

I don't understand why so many people think the defensemen aren't allowed to "do anything." Did we not just see TJ Brodie and Hamonic jump into the play and score a goal a couple days ago, does Hamilton not jump into the play all the time? Does Gio not jump into the play from time to time? Kulak’s first goal he scored was directly a result from jumping into the play. If these guys aren't allowed to jump into the play, then why are there so many examples of our defensemen jumping into the play?

If our GM built this team to get enough goals from whoever and wherever, then why did he admit hat goal scoring was going to be the weak link going into the season? Why did he feel compelled to sign a 46 year old Jagr a day before the season started? He also did the same thing the year before with Versteeg. If the man who built this team knew we were going to struggle to score goals, then I don't think it's too crazy for us fans to believe the same thing.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I don't understand why so many people think the defensemen aren't allowed to "do anything." Did we not just see TJ Brodie and Hamonic jump into the play and score a goal a couple days ago, does Hamilton not jump into the play all the time? Does Gio not jump into the play from time to time? Kulak’s first goal he scored was directly a result from jumping into the play. If these guys aren't allowed to jump into the play, then why are there so many examples of our defensemen jumping into the play?

You're confusing jumping into the occasional rush with jumping into the cycle. Our Dmen do not participate in the cycle, which represents the gross majority of our offensive zone time. Even Hamilton, on the cycle, is more likely to fall back to the red line than to jump into the play.

It's pretty clear our forwards are expected to produce 3 on 5 out of the cycle if there isn't a quick rush chance to be had. This is a very conservative style. Additionally, our defensemen have been programmed by Gully/Jerrard not to jump on loose pucks leading to far more wasted cycles than the typical opponent. We have forward lines that can cycle the puck - Bennett's line, Tkachuk's line, even Lazar's line, but the vast majority of these cycles are fruitless because there is virtually zero offensive support from the defensemen. The result? A perception of "no depth" from clearly talented NHLers like Bennett and Jankowski and Backlund and Frolik. We have one line getting a hart trophy performance from one player masking the blatant 3v5 offense.

Our defense is talented enough to lead the NHL in defense scoring but are overwhelmingly middle-of-the-pack offensively and aren't even being fully utilized for their excellent breakout skill. Joining the occasional rush does not erase that obvious misuse. Especially in a system that generates very little rush offense. Giordano, Brodie, Kulak, Hamonic, and Stone are all very underwhelming offensively for what they could and should be and Hamilton is simply "talenting" thru the misuse with his ridiculous wrist shot.

Best example I can give you is the Sbisa goal in the Vegas game. That does not happen in Gulutzan's system. That shot simply does not happen for us because our D would already be back in their own zone; they would not be thinking "attack".

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by nemanja2306

I agree. Although, one has to wonder if he was forced from the owners to go for it at the expense of prospects and futures.

That may well be the case. It may be the case today, too. But I try to suppress that line of thought because it's too depressing to consider that the chronic mediocrity of this franchise is due to meddling owners.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

You're confusing jumping into the occasional rush with jumping into the cycle. Our Dmen do not participate in the cycle, which represents the gross majority of our offensive zone time. Even Hamilton, on the cycle, is more likely to fall back to the red line than to jump into the play.

It's pretty clear our forwards are expected to produce 3 on 5 out of the cycle if there isn't a quick rush chance to be had. This is a very conservative style. Additionally, our defensemen have been programmed by Gully/Jerrard not to jump on loose pucks leading to far more wasted cycles than the typical opponent. We have forward lines that can cycle the puck - Bennett's line, Tkachuk's line, even Lazar's line, but the vast majority of these cycles are fruitless because there is virtually zero offensive support from the defensemen. The result? A perception of "no depth" from clearly talented NHLers like Bennett and Jankowski and Backlund and Frolik. We have one line getting a hart trophy performance from one player masking the blatant 3v5 offense.

Our defense is talented enough to lead the NHL in defense scoring but are overwhelmingly middle-of-the-pack offensively and aren't even being fully utilized for their excellent breakout skill. Joining the occasional rush does not erase that obvious misuse. Especially in a system that generates very little rush offense. Giordano, Brodie, Kulak, Hamonic, and Stone are all very underwhelming offensively for what they could and should be and Hamilton is simply "talenting" thru the misuse with his ridiculous wrist shot.

Best example I can give you is the Sbisa goal in the Vegas game. That does not happen in Gulutzan's system. That shot simply does not happen for us because our D would already be back in their own zone; they would not be thinking "attack".

Was more so responding to notion that Gulutzan's system is so rigid that apparently no one is allowed to do anything. In regards to being involved into the cycle, they're given the green light to pinch, just look at the advanced numbers that shows this team out-shooting and out chancing their opponents on a daily basis. Obviously they do it smartly unless everyone enjoys the risk of giving up more breakaways and odd man rushes.

Also, this perception that we are a deep team at forward. We are not. If Bennett and Jankowski played the way they did in December throughout the whole season, I'd maybe agree with you. But they went invisible in January and most of February. Backlund and Frolik under the same coach and system thrived last season, but have under performed this season and have more to give. Good news is Tkachuk has seen a major uptick though. The 4th line is just a black hole in terms of offense.

Also if you think this team generates very little off the rush, you're completely out to lunch because all Gaudreau-Monahan-Ferland do is score off the rush. I don't see anything wrong with the idea of adding some additional playmakers or guys who can create their own shot. If the 1st line can do it, then I don't see how Gulutzan's system stifles everyone else because clearly there's players who are obviously thriving.

Also Sbisa's goal? You mean to tell me we don't have guys who can step in to a slap shot completely wide open? It's called reading the play. There's an opening with time and space for him to step in and wire it. It's not like Hamilton and Gio are devoid of this opportunity as they are on pace to score 30+ goals between them while the other defensemen on our team historically don't put up big goal totals, so that's the reason for their current numbers.

[The Boy Wonder]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Was more so responding to notion that Gulutzan's system is so rigid that apparently no one is allowed to do anything. In regards to being involved into the cycle, they're given the green light to pinch, just look at the advanced numbers that shows this team out-shooting and out chancing their opponents on a daily basis. Obviously they do it smartly unless everyone enjoys the risk of giving up more breakaways and odd man rushes.

Also, this perception that we are a deep team at forward. We are not. If Bennett and Jankowski played the way they did in December throughout the whole season, I'd maybe agree with you. But they went invisible in January and most of February. Backlund and Frolik under the same coach and system thrived last season, but have under performed this season and have more to give. Good news is Tkachuk has seen a major uptick though. The 4th line is just a black hole in terms of offense.

Also if you think this team generates very little off the rush, you're completely out to lunch because all Gaudreau-Monahan-Ferland do is score off the rush. I don't see anything wrong with the idea of adding some additional playmakers or guys who can create their own shot. If the 1st line can do it, then I don't see how Gulutzan's system stifles everyone else because clearly there's players who are obviously thriving.

Also Sbisa's goal? You mean to tell me we don't have guys who can step in to a slap shot completely wide open? It's called reading the play. There's an opening with time and space for him to step in and wire it. It's not like Hamilton and Gio are devoid of this opportunity as they are on pace to score 30+ goals between them while the other defensemen on our team historically don't put up big goal totals, so that's the reason for their current numbers.

The system is rigid and doesn't allow defensmen to pinch down and get involved for extended periods of time. I think if you look at number of times a flames dman is below the hashmarks with the puck you would find we are in the bottom third of the league. Which is a shame considering our d core can skate and shoot (for the most part)

Just because the top line thrives under gulutzan and no other line does doesn't mean it's on the other 9 guys. The top line thrived under ANY coach with the way Johnny has been going this year. A different coach could likely get more out of the rest of this forward group and utilize the skill on the back end a little better.

[Heavy Jack]

It's not like our offence is stagnant on D ~ the top D point getter at this time is Klingberg with 7 goals and 47 assists 54 points.

Dougie ~ 14 G / 24 A / 38 Pts (9th) among D
Giordano ~ 9 G / 22 A / 31 Pts (25th) among D
Brodie ~ 4 G / 23 A / 27 Pts (41st) among D

Are they under performing? Sure they are ~ but the Flames have also been noticeably more dominant in 1 goal games this year than Hartley was in them; sure we had all those exciting comebacks that one year but past that the two seasons that saw us draft Monahan and Tkachuk were riddled with us not being able to go toe to toe in one goal games.

If the Flames have a better power play in the first half of this season GG looks a lot better than he does right now ~ we are like 4 wins off of being in a dominant spot at this point and I can think back to many loses this year that we should have won and played well enough to win.

This team isn't as far off as some think IMO.

[djsFlames]

Dougie on the PP from day 1 and therefore probably another PP goal every other game would in all likelihood have us looking at San Jose in the rear view mirror right now.

Many little yet obvious decisions have created little set backs all year that added up would make a big difference in the team's current predicament. Wish these coaches were more proactive and on the ball about adjustments. Far too static. Maybe the Dougie move paying off helps GG sit back less about trying other things.