Fire Dave Cameron

[IgiTang]

Originally Posted by Radio

What's Gelina doing? He knows a thing or two about scoring goals. Time to bring him down and gett him working on the PP.

If you’re going to try and drag the Eliminator into this then you best be spelling his name correctly at the very least. He’s earned that much.

[dustygoon]

Originally Posted by SebC

I'm not sure how things shake out for two goals, but the math suggests that the optimal time to pull with a one-goal deficit is somewhere between 2:30-3:00 left. Coaches have, historically, been excessively conservative.

Thanks. This is why i was asking. I wasn't criticizing their decision to pull.

More that there must be some analysis here. I would think when down by more than 1 goal, it should be match-up based. Maybe someday we get to point where goalie is running back and forth as matchups switch.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

So if there is any consistency in a powerplay season to season, it's because of players like Ovechkin?

I agree that there is randomness to powerplays. However, when one looks as defunct and confused as the Flames, it's an issue. A powerplay with players like Gaudreau, Monahan, Giordano, Hamilton, and Tkachuk should not look so absolutely lost 98% of the time they are on the ice.

Randomness might make a good powerplay rank in the top 5, but it certainly won't make a hopeless one operate in that position.

Well if you look at Anaheim there were mid to low 20's on the PP in 13/14 and 14/15. In 15/16 they jumped to number 1 in the league. The next two years they are down at the bottom again.

So there is a precedent that poor PP teams can jump up to the top 5 for a single season.

Gaudreau, Monahan, Giordano, Hamilton, and Tkachuk are all good players, but are they all good PP performers throughout their careers?

I mean pretty much every team in the league can put 5 good players on the ice. Do the Flames have any guys that are special PP performers?

I think fans of almost every team expect their team to be at least average on the PP, but that can't be possible.

[Ashasx]

You clearly aren't watching the games because no Flames fan is watching this product and saying "yeah the reason why the powerplay isn't operating in the top half of the league is simply bad luck".

[Royle9]

Luck may come into play when looking at rankings between the top 5.
Luck is NOT the reason the flames are bottom 5 rather than anywhere else.

Our PP is garbage, the plan is garbage, the setups are garbage, the coach responsible for all the above is garbage. We've seen it on more than 1 occasion the last few games where Johnny is visually upset/annoyed because everyone is motionless standing still on the perimeter and he's forced to try and lob a shot on the net just for the sake of getting a shot.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

You clearly aren't watching the games because no Flames fan is watching this product and saying "yeah the reason why the powerplay isn't operating in the top half of the league is simply bad luck".

I'm not watching every Flames game, but the ones I have, nothing has stood out to me to the point where I have thought "What are these guys doing?!". Their PP looks pretty similar to a bunch of other teams.

In terms of generating shots they are 18th in the league. 55.42/60. That tells me that they are at least able to gain the zone and get set up as much as any other average team.

Perhaps the Flames just aren't getting the good bounces. Goals going in off shin pads is a part of hockey and it happens all the time. Maybe its not happening much for the Flames this season.

I just see the PP coach's head called for on every team with a poor PP. Not sure these guys really have as much control as people think they do.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

I'm not watching every Flames game, but the ones I have, nothing has stood out to me to the point where I have thought "What are these guys doing?!". Their PP looks pretty similar to a bunch of other teams.

In terms of generating shots they are 18th in the league. 55.42/60. That tells me that they are at least able to gain the zone and get set up as much as any other average team.

Perhaps the Flames just aren't getting the good bounces. Goals going in off shin pads is a part of hockey and it happens all the time. Maybe its not happening much for the Flames this season.

I just see the PP coach's head called for on every team with a poor PP. Not sure these guys really have as much control as people think they do.

They run a PP I have never seen run before.

Their new 'system' I literally have no idea what they are trying to do. I guess line up 3 of our own guys at the blueline and wrist shots at the net praying for a tip in.

Our PP goal the other night was on a deflected pass to the corner, which forced a new play (and a goal)

So the only way this system scored is when the other team actually stops it, and by fluke the puck placement forces a new option (with 2 guys who arent usually on the PP)

[debil]

Powerplay success is a function of ability to enter the offensive zone and maintain possession while the other team plays trap. good teams use high skilled #1 center to do that. flames use hamilton and gaudreau. hamilton is not bad at that but still just an average. gaudreau due to his size and reach is less good. why dont we use playmaking possession superstar and #1 center monahan is beyond me.

[Inglewood Jack]

I'm in a Flames forum thread where an Oiler fan is defending the Flames power play against a bunch of frustrated Flames fans. I believe I have entered the Upside Down.

then again, is Oil Stain just secretly hoping that the Flames power play continues exactly as is, thus sinking our playoff hopes?

[IgiTang]

Originally Posted by debil

Powerplay success is a function of ability to enter the offensive zone and maintain possession while the other team plays trap. good teams use high skilled #1 center to do that. flames use hamilton and gaudreau. hamilton is not bad at that but still just an average. gaudreau due to his size and reach is less good. why dont we use playmaking possession superstar and #1 center monahan is beyond me.

I think the PP is 3 parts. Zone Entry, Setup, Set Play... It seems to me that the good teams all run a play from each players spot on the PP and in the event that play fails, the players know where to be to regroup and attack again and with practice and execution they are able to execute these plays faster and faster before the PK gets a chance to reset and defend.

The Flames have a Funnel... Funnel everything to the net, hope for a rebound and bang it in.. Since there is no set play except for pass it back to the point and then fake to the right side and pass it back to Johnny who skates down the left side and tries to snipe short side high and usually misses... is really the only set play the flames have. The remainder of the PP relies on quickness to the puck for recovery and try another jam play or funnel the puck from the half boards or point towards then net.. for another jam play.

This is what I am seeing game after game PP after PP and other teams know its what the flames will do and are able to easily counter it.

Zone Entry is fine. Possession after entry is mediocre. Play execution, positioning after the shot(recovery), and creativity is non-existent ( all coachable eveolutions and yet they remain the same..).

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by Inglewood Jack

I'm in a Flames forum thread where an Oiler fan is defending the Flames power play against a bunch of frustrated Flames fans. I believe I have entered the Upside Down.

then again, is Oil Stain just secretly hoping that the Flames power play continues exactly as is, thus sinking our playoff hopes?

I'm not defending the Flames PP so much as just disagreeing with blaming coaching for everything.

Goalie sucks: Fire the goalie coach!
PP/PK sucks: Fire the Special Teams coach!

I think its too simplistic of an approach and would like to see more analysis and nuance in hockey talk rather than knee jerk responses.

I mean weren't the Flames top 5 in PP for like 3/4 of last season? Was Cameron a genius then?

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Average team gets roughly 250 power plays a season.
Average team scores about 50ish goals a year. A 5 goal swing can put a team from 15th to top ten or bottom ten. A ten goal swing is massive.

So it doesn't take much random chance to affect the outcomes.

If PPs were 100% skill based then Pittsburgh/Washington would finish 1st every single season.

I mean certain teams do well over stretches of time. Like the Capitals. It's clear that skill is important. Ovechkin for instance is pretty much the only guy in the league that can beat goalies clean with a long range wrister in today's game. That has tremendous value.

But you can look at a team like San Jose. They've had basically the same top players for years. So lots of chemistry, and talent, and their PP fluctuates wildly from one year to the next.

I mean all NHL teams know what each other are doing. They essentially all play the same systems. Anyone can break down Washington's PP on tape easily, but they can't copy it because they don't have Ovechkin.

So what's a PP coach realistically going to do?

Is this all the same reasoning you use when analyzing the Oiler's penalty kill? You know, the one that's historically bad? Is that because of bad luck too or do you attribute some of that to personnel and systems?

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Is this all the same reasoning you use when analyzing the Oiler's penalty kill? You know, the one that's historically bad? Is that because of bad luck too or do you attribute some of that to personnel and systems?

It's historically bad at home.
On the road its first in the league.

So I really don't know what to make of that. Do you have a logical answer for that one?

The coach halfway through the season, "Oh damn I accidentally told them to use the get scored on 50% of the time system at home. Oops!"

I don't want to make it about the Oilers. I try to apply the same logic to all teams around the league because the way a fan attempts to analyze hockey shouldn't change just because you like one team more than another.

So in the Oilers case I don't really think its the PK coaches fault, just as I don't think its the coaches fault in Calgary.

[djsFlames]

They either go for point shots, not one timers, or pass around their diamond. Johnny occasionally tries to feed a Tkachuk deflection but it's usually from a wide angle which is near impossible. Hamilton and Gio do open up space for each other but neither shoots fast enough to take advantage of that.

There are no cross ice bang bang plays (again one timers, non existent), no one waiting in the slot or attempting to move into that area to make a high danger shot. The flame in front of the net is usually tied up or outnumbered.

Their best chance of scoring is from the point or a turnover inside the zone by the defending team.

Its actually not hard to see why capitalizing isn't effective.

Come up with some new plays that put you in a shooting spot inside the perimeter. Put guys on the off wings with the sole purpose of getting the puck on net quickly.

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

They either go for point shots, not one timers, or pass around their diamond. Johnny occasionally tries to feed a Tkachuk deflection but it's usually from a wide angle which is near impossible. Hamilton and Gio do open up space for each other but neither shoots fast enough to take advantage of that.

There are no cross ice bang bang plays (again one timers, non existent), no one waiting in the slot or attempting to move into that area to make a high danger shot. The flame in front of the net is usually tied up or outnumbered.

Their best chance of scoring is from the point or a turnover inside the zone by the defending team.

Its actually not hard to see why capitalizing isn't effective.

Come up with some new plays that put you in a shooting spot inside the perimeter. Put guys on the off wings with the sole purpose of getting the puck on net quickly.

Stop, STOP, STOP THIS MADNESS
You're making too much sense - Signed D.Cameron

[Frequitude]

Oh look. A coach fire thread bump. We must have lost last night.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Average team gets roughly 250 power plays a season.
Average team scores about 50ish goals a year. A 5 goal swing can put a team from 15th to top ten or bottom ten. A ten goal swing is massive.

So it doesn't take much random chance to affect the outcomes.

If PPs were 100% skill based then Pittsburgh/Washington would finish 1st every single season.

I mean certain teams do well over stretches of time. Like the Capitals. It's clear that skill is important. Ovechkin for instance is pretty much the only guy in the league that can beat goalies clean with a long range wrister in today's game. That has tremendous value.

But you can look at a team like San Jose. They've had basically the same top players for years. So lots of chemistry, and talent, and their PP fluctuates wildly from one year to the next.

I mean all NHL teams know what each other are doing. They essentially all play the same systems. Anyone can break down Washington's PP on tape easily, but they can't copy it because they don't have Ovechkin.

So what's a PP coach realistically going to do?

Not really - San Jose has recorded a PP of more than 20% 6 of the last 8 seasons. They're good because they have a great players who have a PP system that suits their skill set as a unit. The Flames are forcing a square into a round hole and are unwilling to acknowledge it. It is actual insanity that they are not changing the system or doing anything at this point with something like a 9% powerplay the last 6-8 weeks. People can blame Cameron all they want, but it's Gulutzan who has the cake on his face if he is this spineless that he cannot step up and force a system change or punt Cameron.

It's not asking much for a PK unit lining up against the Flames to let Gio putter around at the point, unable to get shots through so long as they box Johnny out the majority of the time. Well coached, effective PP's have multiple options and are able to adapt if things are not working.

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

Oh look. A coach fire thread bump. We must have lost last night.

Valid attempt to out the volatile fan base here on CP, but even when we're winning nobody is impressed with the PP. Haven't been for months, because it doesn't win us games.

[Erick Estrada]

Little chance Cameron gets fired until Gulutzan does. Jordan Sigalet didn't get fired for two straight seasons of poor/below expectations goaltending so I don't see Cameron getting canned for one season of a bad powerplay.

[direwolf]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

Oh look. A coach fire thread bump. We must have lost last night.

Not sure if you've noticed, but the PP loses EVERY night. This thread will continue to be bumped until the team addresses the problem.