[Trade] Sens trade Lazar and Kostka to the Flames for a 2nd + Jokipakka

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

But that's my point. Trading for Lazar wouldn't have been necessary if Klimchuk, Poirier, Arnold, etc. weren't busts.

True, but prospects are going to bust. The Flames have improved greatly the last few years at finding, signing/drafting and developing homegrown players.

Half their D are homegrown - Giordano, Brodie, Kulak
The back up goalie is homegrown (finally) - Rittich
Seven of their top nine forwards are homegrown - Gaudreau, Monahan, Ferland, Tkachuk, Backlund, Bennett, Janko

They also have Hathaway, Mangiapane and Lomberg taking some NHL reps this year.

Hopefully this trend continues, because it's been sorely lacking since the '80s and probably the biggest reason this team has been an also-ran all that time.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

But that's my point. Trading for Lazar wouldn't have been necessary if Klimchuk, Poirier, Arnold, etc. weren't busts.

Klimchuk has looked okay in the AHL but he hasn't had a sniff with the Flames and I assume he's going to have to wait until he's waiver eligible before the team finally looks at him. I would say he's a bust but the rest certainly were. Monahan was kind of a no-brainer in the 2013 draft but the rest of that draft was a total disaster for the organization. They turned 8 picks (3 in the first round) into one player. That's part of the reason this team is so offensively challenged as they really needed to turn at least 2/3 those first round picks into players.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Klimchuk has looked okay in the AHL but he hasn't had a sniff with the Flames and I assume he's going to have to wait until he's waiver eligible before the team finally looks at him. I would say he's a bust but the rest certainly were. Monahan was kind of a no-brainer in the 2013 draft but the rest of that draft was a total disaster for the organization. They turned 8 picks (3 in the first round) into one player. That's part of the reason this team is so offensively challenged as they really needed to turn at least 2/3 those first round picks into players.

Yeah, if we had a couple more scorers from those picks contributing on the Flames right now it would go a long ways.

Funny thing is, other than the top 10 or 15 picks, that draft was really a dud. Usually you look back at a Flames draft and you can see really good players taken shortly after the Flames whiffed, but it's not really the case with that draft. Especially in the 2nd round of that draft. Just a bunch of busts really.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Yeah, if we had a couple more scorers from those picks contributing on the Flames right now it would go a long ways.

Funny thing is, other than the top 10 or 15 picks, that draft was really a dud. Usually you look back at a Flames draft and you can see really good players taken shortly after the Flames whiffed, but it's not really the case with that draft. Especially in the 2nd round of that draft. Just a bunch of busts really.

I believe it was hyped as a deep draft which was why it was exciting to have three picks in the first round.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I have no issues with this trade or having him in the lineup.

I think at the start of the season, he was in and out of the lineup and fairly ineffective. With regular playing time, I think it is easy to see the improvement in his overall game. The offence has been underwhelming for sure, but he has other really great attributes. He is a great skater that brings good speed and a non-stop motor, he is making some really great defensive plays, he brings a nice amount of grit to the lineup, he is a solid forechecker as well, and recently has been making better offensive plays.

I think if the Flames continue to keep him in the lineup, he will continue to improve. I think he has a fairly solid floor, and I made mention a while back that I think he should start taking some reps on the PK and develop him more in that area. Lazar can be a good contributor to this team if they continue having a bit of patience with him and investing a bit of time. He isn't hurting the team in my opinion - at least not any longer and not for a lengthy stretch of games.

If there is one guy in the lineup that I want Backlund to mentor it is this guy. He could end up being a really effective defensive player for this team, and once again, HOPEFULLY he can also start contributing as a depth scorer as well.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Klimchuk has looked okay in the AHL but he hasn't had a sniff with the Flames and I assume he's going to have to wait until he's waiver eligible before the team finally looks at him. I would say he's a bust but the rest certainly were. Monahan was kind of a no-brainer in the 2013 draft but the rest of that draft was a total disaster for the organization. They turned 8 picks (3 in the first round) into one player. That's part of the reason this team is so offensively challenged as they really needed to turn at least 2/3 those first round picks into players.

To be fair to our scouts that draft just didn't end up being very good outside of the top 10 picks.

The only forwards that really have shown anything outside of the first round of that draft are:

Duclair
Buchnevich
Guentzel
Janmark
Bjorkstrand
Wood

The Poirier pick is the one that hurts but even then there isn't much outside of Burakovsky or Theodore that is interesting after him in the first round.

The pick that is hurting the Flames right now is Bennett. With Bennett's pick it was the right pick at the time & even then Dal Colle, Virtanen, Fleury, & Ritchie haven't been any better but Nylander or Ehlers would make this a much more dynamic forward group though.

The second rounders from that year hurt too - even just from an asset perspective. If Mason MacDonald is Thatcher Demko we easily have a blue chip goalie prospect to shop (Gillies, Demko, Parsons but arguable if we sign Rittich then so maybe a moot point). Brandon Montour would look a lot better than Hunter Smith though, and probably means we don't trade for Hamonic.

The one that I really wish we would have listened to some of the local fans and taken home town kid Brayden Point in the 2nd/3rd that year. I remember there was some chatter around our 3rd round pick of Hickey that the Flames were thinking about it - of course he had to be drafted in the year we decided to prioritize size again. (Although Mathew Phillips WHL points are shockingly similar so maybe, just maybe they redeemed themselves).

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I believe it was hyped as a deep draft which was why it was exciting to have three picks in the first round.

It is turning out to be a pretty solid draft at the top end:
The first 9 picks are all impact players to some degree.
But the quality in the second half of the first isn't great.

I think Feaster pushed a narrative of the importance of firsts, but when those picks are late in the 1st, they aren't really that much better than seconds in terms of probability of netting a player, and unlikelihood of that player being an impact one.

The Iginla deal had to be made.
My beef is that the Bouwmeester one didn't. He was signed for another year, and could have been dealt at the draft, or sometime in the off-season for potentially better value.

[burnitdown]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

But that's my point. Trading for Lazar wouldn't have been necessary if Klimchuk, Poirier, Arnold, etc. weren't busts.

So we had to trade for Lazar because Klimchuk and Poirier were busts? They're all from the same draft year so I find it funny we rush to label Klimchuk and Poirier busts (a year ago at the time of the trade!) while many people are saying we need to give Lazar time to develop before judging the trade as he's still young.

Maybe we hoped for more from Lazar when we traded for him and it didn't work out as hoped (yet)...but he wasn't an established NHLer brought in to instantly solve our 4th line troubles. If Klimchuk and Poirier were given 37 games with us this year, I'm quite certain they'd both have more than 5 pts and be able to hold down that 4th line spot just as well as Lazar.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Wild GM

It is turning out to be a pretty solid draft at the top end:
The first 9 picks are all impact players to some degree.
But the quality in the second half of the first isn't great.

I think Feaster pushed a narrative of the importance of firsts, but when those picks are late in the 1st, they aren't really that much better than seconds in terms of probability of netting a player, and unlikelihood of that player being an impact one.

The Iginla deal had to be made.
My beef is that the Bouwmeester one didn't. He was signed for another year, and could have been dealt at the draft, or sometime in the off-season for potentially better value.

I would bet his value would have continued to increase. Bouwmeester under Hartley was highly effective as a two-way defencemen. I was VERY critical of Bouwmeester under Sutter, and wanted him gone. Under Hartley, he was actually very good.

Had he finished off that shortened season in Calgary, I do believe that the market for him would have been very strong.

[Hackey]

Ya the Bouwmeester trade was botched. Definitely didn't maximize value there. Iginla should have returned us something better but he had handcuffed the team.

[dino7c]

Jay "cap space is an asset and part of the return for Jaybo" Feaster

Space was never used

[transplant99]

For those asking me...we will see what he says.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by burnitdown

So we had to trade for Lazar because Klimchuk and Poirier were busts? They're all from the same draft year so I find it funny we rush to label Klimchuk and Poirier busts (a year ago at the time of the trade!) while many people are saying we need to give Lazar time to develop before judging the trade as he's still young.

Maybe we hoped for more from Lazar when we traded for him and it didn't work out as hoped (yet)...but he wasn't an established NHLer brought in to instantly solve our 4th line troubles. If Klimchuk and Poirier were given 37 games with us this year, I'm quite certain they'd both have more than 5 pts and be able to hold down that 4th line spot just as well as Lazar.

What makes you certain they’d have more pts than Lazar?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[burnitdown]

Originally Posted by VilleN

What makes you certain they’d have more pts than Lazar?

Of the 324 NHL forwards that have played at least the same number of games as Lazar, only 3 (0.9%) have scored less points than him. Seems like a pretty safe bet...

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Jay "cap space is an asset and part of the return for Jaybo" Feaster

Space was never used

That's a Chia philosophy too.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by burnitdown

Of the 324 NHL forwards that have played at least the same number of games as Lazar, only 3 (0.9%) have scored less points than him. Seems like a pretty safe bet...

Fair, but Klimchuck and Poirier have not proven themselves as capable NHLers at this point, so I would say it’s reasonable to assume that if they did play they’d probably be in the bottom tier of NHL scorers... I think some fans over value what we have in the AHL because they’re dissatisfied with the current roster and think that for some reason players in the minors would be better than current NHLers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[neo45]

Originally Posted by neo45

even in a weak draft a 2nd is a high price for a reclamation project who never had huge upside

i was right

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

He has been pretty good the last little while IMO. He is completely snake bitten but brings energy, is a great back checker, and tends to get chances every night.

Wouldn't mind seeing him on that third line.

Bennett - Janko - Lazar

Tell them just to go forecheck and create some havok.

Not everyone in the NHL who generate energy and chances but don't score are snakebitten. Some just aren't good at finishing at the NHL level, Lazar looks like one of those guys, to me.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by transplant99

For those asking me...we will see what he says.

What? Is this post connected to something I'm missing?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Jay "cap space is an asset and part of the return for Jaybo" Feaster

Space was never used

I still think Feaster was a bit of a patsy. The team was on the decline with aging veterans and his objective seemed to be to sell off assets for futures and recoup some losses. The cap space argument was a PR move, but given where the team was at the time, he may not have had the go-ahead to even use it.

I don't feel bad for him because he took the job, but I don't think he was ever in the long term plans of the club. The GM in charge of trading Iginla was never going to be a fan favourite and he was there to absorb the negative PR so the next architect GM wouldn't have to.