Question

[driveway]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Have you? Because in first-world countries that don't have tipping, eating out is more expensive. In the Netherlands, Germany, the UK, people don't go out to eat nearly as often as they do in North America. Part of that is everything is more expensive - rent, food, labour. Part of it is because the tip is built into the bill.

While it's not technically "as often," here is some data compiled by HuffPo in 2013 on amount of money different countries spend on food.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...n_3880324.html

Here are the countries and their spending per person, per year on restaurant meals, data is from 2012. Countries are ordered from least to most total spending on food, alcohol, and tobacco.

USA: $1485
UK: $1405
Greece: $1158
Ireland: $1553
France: $964
Belgium: $942
Denmark: $854
Italy: $1584
Canada: $1465
Hong Kong: $1671
Spain: $2148
Austria: $1774
Finland: $1168
New Zealand: $1701
Sweden: $959
Japan: $1513
Australia: $2131
Norway: $1151
Switzerland: $1501

Based on this list I don't think it's possible to make the argument that eliminating tipping and increasing wages and also prices can at all be tied to people eating out less. I'd argue there are many different factors which have much more impact.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by stampsx2

The few times I go out to eat I find the food quality gets worse each year, the prices are higher than the last time and I’m forced to tip good service or bad.

Servers have probably realized there’s no reason to make an effort, they’ll get tipped anyway. That’s the problem.

Gone are the days where you would tip for a server going above and beyond.

You’re probably just getting old. The tastebuds and general demeanour are dying off.

Eating out is going to be jello and your daily pills in the lunch room soon enough, might as well enjoy these last few miserable restaurant experiences.

[AltaGuy]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

How does advocating for higher prices make someone a cheapskate though?

You - and a few others - are misunderstanding Cliff. He is saying that under the current system bad tippers are being subsidized by good tippers. The equilibrium falls in the middle for what a server makes. People who are miserly under this system will find themselves paying more than they currently do if we moved to another model.

Being a cheapskate just comes naturally for some people.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

You - and a few others - are misunderstanding Cliff. He is saying that under the current system bad tippers are being subsidized by good tippers. The equilibrium falls in the middle for what a server makes. People who are miserly under this system will find themselves paying more than they currently do if we moved to another model.

Being a cheapskate just comes naturally for some people.

Being a cheapskate and hating tipping are not the same thing though.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

You - and a few others - are misunderstanding Cliff. He is saying that under the current system bad tippers are being subsidized by good tippers. The equilibrium falls in the middle for what a server makes. People who are miserly under this system will find themselves paying more than they currently do if we moved to another model.

I am unsure if anyone is arguing 'bad' versus 'good' tippers. The debate is what the expectation is now that wages have increased.

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

Being a cheapskate just comes naturally for some people.

I think you are trolling this thread. Repeat nonsense posts have added nothing to this conversation.

[puckedoff]

Originally Posted by 4X4

But yeah, call me cheap... Why does questioning a unique thing like this equate to being cheap? It's not like I tip the person at the shoe store because he or she keeps running to the back to get me another pair that I want to try on.

Claims not to be cheap but doesn't even tip his shoe guy. Come on man, you're embarassing yourself.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Have you? Because in first-world countries that don't have tipping, eating out is more expensive. In the Netherlands, Germany, the UK, people don't go out to eat nearly as often as they do in North America. Part of that is everything is more expensive - rent, food, labour. Part of it is because the tip is built into the bill.

I'm fine with doing away with tipping. But the only people who will pay less under a no-tipping model are the people who are currently tipping very generously.

What are you banging on about? Who even claimed it would be cheaper? I know my post clearly stated "charge me more, and pay the server more". What is your point? You're just calling people cheap because you do not understand the point being made by people that think tipping is a flawed concept.

[CliffFletcher]

I've never said everyone who is opposed to tipping is cheap. But those who are won't be better off with a non-tipping model.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by driveway

While it's not technically "as often," here is some data compiled by HuffPo in 2013 on amount of money different countries spend on food.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...n_3880324.html

Here are the countries and their spending per person, per year on restaurant meals, data is from 2012. Countries are ordered from least to most total spending on food, alcohol, and tobacco.

USA: $1485
UK: $1405
Greece: $1158
Ireland: $1553
France: $964
Belgium: $942
Denmark: $854
Italy: $1584
Canada: $1465
Hong Kong: $1671
Spain: $2148
Austria: $1774
Finland: $1168
New Zealand: $1701
Sweden: $959
Japan: $1513
Australia: $2131
Norway: $1151
Switzerland: $1501

Based on this list I don't think it's possible to make the argument that eliminating tipping and increasing wages and also prices can at all be tied to people eating out less. I'd argue there are many different factors which have much more impact.

But that's how much people spend, not how often they eat out. I guarantee you someone in Switzerland or Austria who spends $1500 a year eating out is eating out far less often than someone in the U.S. or Canada who spends the same.

I agree there are a lot of factors. But if Canada becomes more like the non-tipping world when it comes to how eating and drinking out are priced, it will mean eating out less for a lot of people who are currently subsidized by generous tippers.

[4X4]

Oh no! Wont somebody think of the cheap people! Thanks Cliff.

[CliffFletcher]

That fact that restaurants that try replacing tipping with an automatic 15% gratuity or increased menu prices see a drop in business proves that yes, there are actually a lot of people too dumb to understand that if we get rid of tipping they'll just pay more in other ways.

[troutman]

The 18 most expensive cities in the world to eat dinner out at a restaurant

http://www.businessinsider.com/most-...ngapore-4020-1

1. Zurich, Switzerland — $73.70

[troutman]

what does a typical date night cost?

Defining a 'typical date night' as one that includes a mid-range dinner for two, a shared bottle of wine, two movie tickets, and an 8km taxi ride home

https://www.elitesingles.ca/en/mag/s...ate-night-cost

Cost of a date in 10 major Canadian cities

1. Hamilton, ON: $125
2. Toronto, ON: $123
3. Edmonton, AB: $122
4. Calgary, AB: $120
5. Vancouver, BC: $118
6. Montreal, QC: $117
7. Winnipeg, MB: $109
8. Ottawa, ON: $108
9. Halifax, NS: $107
10. Quebec City, QC: $103

Cost of a date (in CAD) in 25 major global cities

1. Oslo, Norway: $179
2. Tokyo, Japan: $170
3. New York, USA: $160
4. Stockholm, Sweden: $152
5. Amsterdam, the Netherlands: $151
6. London, UK: $147
7. Hong Kong: $142
8. Auckland, New Zealand: $136
9. Paris, France: $132
10. Sydney, Australia: $128

[stampsx2]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

You’re probably just getting old. The tastebuds and general demeanour are dying off.

Eating out is going to be jello and your daily pills in the lunch room soon enough, might as well enjoy these last few miserable restaurant experiences.

Ya you’re right, 28 is that age where things really go downhill.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by stampsx2

Ya you’re right, 28 is that age where things really go downhill.

Oh god.

Thoughts and prayers.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

You - and a few others - are misunderstanding Cliff. He is saying that under the current system bad tippers are being subsidized by good tippers. The equilibrium falls in the middle for what a server makes. People who are miserly under this system will find themselves paying more than they currently do if we moved to another model.

Being a cheapskate just comes naturally for some people.

I think we all understand what cliff is saying. Personally I just feel the same way about customers who only want to pay a price that a business and it’s employees can’t survive on as I do about employers who don’t want to pay a living wage.

The model of allowing the cost for those customers who don’t tip to remain low by being “subsidized” by big tippers is flawed. If those big tippers suddenly stop tipping so much and it affects the business’ ability to attract and maintain labour the business would need to increase it’s prices anyways and the people relying on the subsidized pricing would end up in the exact same spot.

[taco.vidal]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/rest...outs-1.4517271

A number of popular Canadian restaurants have increased the amount of tips servers must share with their colleagues, CBC's Marketplace has learned. And many servers say that money is being doled out to higher-paid staff in lieu of a raise.

"Tipping out" is a common practice in which servers pay into a pool that managers then distribute to non-tip-receiving staff such as hostesses, bussers and kitchen workers.

As businesses grapple with increases to minimum wage, some have cut employee hours, reduced benefits or found other ways to offset increased costs.

Most of the restaurant locations Marketplace visited had bumped the tip out by one percentage point.

For instance, The Keg went from four to five per cent. East Side Mario's from 2.5 to 3.5 per cent.

Earls, a chain with 56 locations across Canada, increased its tip out by .5 per cent, but it had the highest total tip out, CBC discovered, at 5.5 per cent.

An employee at Moxie's, which has 66 locations, told Marketplace their tip out was expected to increase to 5.75 per cent, from 4.75.

Servers 'aren't happy'
Ontario and Alberta will both have a $15 minimum wage by this time next year, and in several other provinces the minimum wage increases each year on a certain date. With those increases, there is pressure on some restaurateurs to also give a salary hike to higher-paid workers, often as an incentive to keep reliable and valuable staff.

"We, the servers, have to pick up the slack," said one employee at a Keg location. "The servers aren't happy about it but there's nothing we can do."

A server at a popular family dining chain in Alberta says it isn't fair to supplement the higher-paid workers' wages with the lower-paid ones.

[Fuzz]

This is my favorite bit:

"I am a little frustrated," said Grace Ford. "There's days where I worked 12 hours, and I still give out $80 of my tips that I've worked all day for to people who sometimes mess up [customers'] food … a customer gets mad, it's me who in the long run suffers from it.
"There's money taken out of my pocket that I worked so hard for, and it just disappears and goes to other people who already make more money than I do."

Here's the thing...customers tip on the entire service, that means food quality, greeting, busing, clean dishes...so it isn't just your tip. It is everyone's, you are just the one collecting it. The back of house has a motivation not to screw up because a share of the tip is theirs.

The money isn't "taken out of your pocket" because that percentage was never yours to start with. And if someone is getting paid more money than you, they are probably worth more, for any number of reasons. Should your increased salary and tips increase to be even with them now? What is this, communism?

[taco.vidal]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

This is my favorite bit:

Here's the thing...customers tip on the entire service, that means food quality, greeting, busing, clean dishes...so it isn't just your tip. It is everyone's, you are just the one collecting it. The back of house has a motivation not to screw up because a share of the tip is theirs.

The money isn't "taken out of your pocket" because that percentage was never yours to start with. And if someone is getting paid more money than you, they are probably worth more, for any number of reasons. Should your increased salary and tips increase to be even with them now? What is this, communism?

I bet a lot of customers dont know that servers are forced to share tips. The article says that forced tip sharing is illegal in Quebec. I think a lot of customers believe their tip is going to the server and are not aware that the server will not receive the entire amount.

Why dont restaurants post on the receipt what the tip sharing policy is? Or on the menu? They have a note about mandatory forced tupping for groups so why cant they add a line with the tip sharing percentages and the mandatory payouts by the server.

This is a dirty secret in the restaurant business that many customers arent aware of.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by taco.vidal

I bet a lot of customers dont know that servers are forced to share tips. The article says that forced tip sharing is illegal in Quebec. I think a lot of customers believe their tip is going to the server and are not aware that the server will not receive the entire amount.

Why dont restaurants post on the receipt what the tip sharing policy is? Or on the menu? They have a note about mandatory forced tupping for groups so why cant they add a line with the tip sharing percentages and the mandatory payouts by the server.

This is a dirty secret in the restaurant business that many customers arent aware of.

Dirty secret???

More like not far enough. The server is the least important part of the experience in a restaurant and has the easiest job outside of host. That the back of the house makes significantly less than the front is probably the greatest crime in the food industry. People go to school to hone their craft to become cooks and get paid like crap relative to the front of the house after tips are considered.

There should be an option to directly tip the kitchen