Also, I do agree with the other posters here who are pushing the cap jail angle. IMO being able to keep:
Hamilton + Tkachuk + Backlund is more valuable to the team than just Karlsson.
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With respect to Tavares and his teammates that he has carried through the years:
Spoiler!
2012-2013: Moulson (44 points in 47 games), Boyes (35 points in 48 games)
Moulson was a nobody in LA. Islanders bring him over and he plays with Tavares putting up a PPG pace nearly. Traded to Buffalo the next season and goes from a 70 point player to a 35 point player away from Tavares. 4 years later, he's out of the league completely.
Boyes had sucked for several years, comes to the Island for a season and revitalizes his career. Signs in Florida the next year and becomes a 35 point scrub (lockout year he was on pace for 60 points) before disappearing.
2013-2014: Okposo (69 points in 71 games), Vanek (44 points in 47 games)
Okposo had 24 points the season before playing with Neilsen. Instantly, the young player is turned into a PPG player by Tavares.
Vanek signs in Minnesota the year after and puts up 52 points in 80 games. From near PPG to 50 point player the season he leaves Tavares. In fairness, Vanek had good seasons in Buffalo prior.
2014-2015: Okposo (51 points in 60 games)/Lee, Bailey/Kulemin
Both Bailey and Kulemin have better years then the year before but this year
while Lee comes out of nowhere to put up 25 goals. Tavares just plays with everyone really. He puts up 86 points, despite never knowing which 2 anchors he's going to make look like legitimate top liners that night. Only Okposo surpasses 50 points on the team, outside of Tavares.
2015-2016: Okposo (64 points in 79 games), Nelson (26 goals)
Another solid year for Okposo as he hits free agency. Brought in as a player the Sabres were banking on producing 65+ points like he did with the Islanders. Two years later, he's on pace for under 50 points.
Nelson gets his career high 26 goals.
2016-2017: Bailey (56 points in 82 games), Lee (34 goals)
Bailey had 32 points the season before. He hadn't really done anything of note except for the brief time in 2014 when he got to piggyback off Tavares. Pretty much established himself as a 35 point player.
Lee, who had 36 points the year before now has 34 goals playing with Tavares. This year they are on pace for even crazier production. These are 27 and 28 year olds who had done relatively nothing. Lee is in the Rocket Richard race, Bailey has the same PPG as Gaudreau in that top 5. They aren't hitting their stride-they're playing with Tavares.
Moulson/Lee/Bailey/Okposo have all shown they are not capable top liners without Tavares, arguably only Okposo has shown to be maybe a top 6 player. Throw in him playing with projects like Kulemin and Boyes, and the only legit player they have brought in to play with Tavares is Vanek. And he looked lost without Tavares the very next season.
Vanek - bought out after signing with Minnesota
Boyes - bought out after signing with Florida
Moulson - cleared waivers, likely to be bought out
Okposo - 6M for a player who might not reach 50 points is going to look like an albatross contract in 7 years when he's old.
I guess moral of the story is, for all that is holy do not sign anyone who Tavares plays with. Poor sap of a team that is going to get stuck with a 30 point player in Bailey after paying him for point-per-game production or a 15 goal scorer in Lee after Tavares carries him to the Rocket Richard.
Last edited by Oling_Roachinen; 01-19-2018 at 03:14 PM.
Reason: Save some space
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I wouldn't. Not only is he going to want $12M per but his game has degraded since his surgery. This is the exact kind of deal that puts you in cap jail while you are waiving goodbye to players like Tkachuk, Ferland, and Bennett because you can't afford to sign them. It isn't even a position we need a big upgrade at to boot Hell no.
You don't have to re sign him in 16 months though
Giving up Fox, Gillies and Killington for 2 playoff runs with Erik Karlson is worth it
No thank you. You will have to give up roster players, you dont know how he comes back from injury, he is only signed for two years and already in gis prime. Sorry Erik does not guarantee anything other than second guessing chemistry, salary cap, and depth.
Seen to many teams go for the big splash and fail miserably.
I dont see the difference between Brodie and Erik as significanf enough to take a chance on all of the other possible problems it could lead to. Lets say he just isnt the same player and you give up brodie, fox, valimaki and a second to find out you got a Duchene.
Normally I wouldn't defend him but its a really slow media week with the bye and he obviously needs to write something and this really is say/learn nothing piece to fill what I am sure is a quota for writing
I feel like if Karlsson is coming in a deal one of our cheaper long term deals on the backend goes the other way.
One of Brodie/Hamonic/Stone goes in the package IMO, and my guess is they anchor on wanting Brodie.
I’ve had a similar ankle surgery to what karlsson had and I’ll tell ya, I think he was rushed back. I think he does make a full recovery though and gets close to his old form in the future. Maybe not quite Norris caliber but he gets back to being a serious impact player and maybe a game breaker once again.
With that said, Karlsson at 10-12 Mil/season is too rich but a friendlier cap hit of around 9-10 for the next 3-4 years, or maybe 6 if that’s what it takes, I trade Brodie + Kylington + Gillies all day!
Sure, you want to keep Ferland/Bennett/Stone/Frolik/Backlund and the rest of the gang together, but when was the last time a team won without a top tier player on their team? You don't overlook elite talent to keep depth. You need both, but it's easier to build a winner around elite talent and get depth than the other way.
Teams either win with an elite offensive talent (Art Ross winners: Crosby, Malkin, Kane, (Iginla/St.Louis), Forsberg) or elite defensive centers (Selke winners: Bergeron, Kopitar, Toews, Datsyuk, Brind'Amour, Madden, Lehtinen (winger), Draper) and elite defensive players (Norris winners: Lidstrom, Doughty, Chara, Keith, Niedermayer, Pronger).
Of course having a strong goalie like Roy, Brodeur or flash in the pans Ward and Thomas helped as well.
The last time a team won without a a future or past Art Ross winner, Selke winner or Norris is when? Leetch, Carbonneau, Lemieux, Jagr, I think you may actually have to go back to the 1990 Coffey and Gretzky-less Oilers...
Sure, you want to keep Ferland/Bennett/Stone/Frolik/Backlund and the rest of the gang together, but when was the last time a team won without a top tier player on their team? You don't overlook elite talent to keep depth. You need both, but it's easier to build a winner around elite talent and get depth than the other way.
Teams either win with an elite offensive talent (Art Ross winners: Crosby, Malkin, Kane, (Iginla/St.Louis), Forsberg) or elite defensive centers (Selke winners: Bergeron, Kopitar, Toews, Datsyuk, Brind'Amour, Madden, Lehtinen (winger), Draper) and elite defensive players (Norris winners: Lidstrom, Doughty, Chara, Keith, Niedermayer, Pronger).
Of course having a strong goalie like Roy, Brodeur or flash in the pans Ward and Thomas helped as well.
The last time a team won without a a future or past Art Ross winner, Selke winner or Norris is when? Leetch, Carbonneau, Lemieux, Jagr, I think you may actually have to go back to the 1990 Coffey and Gretzky-less Oilers...
So Johnny is just meh... so is our top D pair who I’m constantly hearing being referred to as arguably the best D-pair in the NHL. Oh and our other two 20 goal scorers at halfway through the season.. oh and our goalie who has the best road numbers in the NHL and if he keeps this up could start entering the Vezina conversation..
What a bunch of bums.. we need an elite talent...
It’s like if you don’t have a shiny new toy and a former team canada player or a generational talent, your team is crap. Regardless of how well they are playing..
So Johnny is just meh... so is our top D pair who I’m constantly hearing being referred to as arguably the best D-pair in the NHL. Oh and our other two 20 goal scorers at halfway through the season.. oh and our goalie who has the best road numbers in the NHL and if he keeps this up could start entering the Vezina conversation..
Yes, because that's exactly what I said.
You're actually proving my point. Why do you think the Flames have a shot? Because Gaudreau is contending for the Art Ross trophy and the Flames have elite defense (pairing). That's the back you'd win the Cup on. Especially if you could bring in another elite talent.
It's not because Ferland and Bennett.
Every team that has won the Cup since you've been alive, probably, did so because they had a past/present/future Norris Trophy/Selke/Art Ross trophy winner or combination of. I mean, it's not a coincidence.
So Johnny is just meh... so is our top D pair who I’m constantly hearing being referred to as arguably the best D-pair in the NHL. Oh and our other two 20 goal scorers at halfway through the season.. oh and our goalie who has the best road numbers in the NHL and if he keeps this up could start entering the Vezina conversation..
What a bunch of bums.. we need an elite talent...
It’s like if you don’t have a shiny new toy and a former team canada player or a generational talent, your team is crap. Regardless of how well they are playing..
Agreed i love some of the comparisons on cp. Welll he isnt a star player cause if you look at so and so ( insert any of the top three players at that position over the last 20 years) he just doesnt compare.
We should ship him off for a player with lower numbers cause obviously they are just poised to break out on another team.
Yes these are all correct and fair points. But it's not about hurting someone's feelings because someone makes more then them. It's about having enough money to sign Ferland, Bennet and Matty to the raises they are due. Rittich is getting a raise people. I will say this again; Hockey is a team sport with a salary cap. You don't spend more then an 8th of your cap on 1 player when you have another 21 positions to fill . You fill out a Roster and have depth down to the 4th line. That's how you hurt top heavy opponenents. You grind them to paste for a full 60 minutes, not just 22 mins when your top line is out. Look at Vegas. They have no one that is worth 12mill, but they do have 4 2nd lines.
The pengiuns have won as many cups as they have because they have the ability to find ELC players that step up and play like they are 5 year vets.
Exactly why you sign Tavares. This gives the Flames the top end superstars needed to win a cup and if Treliving does his job he finds the cheap contracts through trade, with current prospects or the draft to fill out the team. Guys like Tavares are very rarely available
Monahan, Tavares and Gaudreau (assuming 12 mil for Tavares) equals 25 mil and 3 first line players and 2 superstars. Not bad considering the cap could be close to 80 mil next year
They also can resign guys like Tkachuk, Bennett, Jankowski and Ferland after this, may have to part way with guys like Frolik or buyout Brouwer on his last year of deal, or a Brodie or a Stone. Easily worth it though especially if you develop some prospects
You're actually proving my point. Why do you think the Flames have a shot? Because Gaudreau is contending for the Art Ross trophy and the Flames have elite defense (pairing). That's the back you'd win the Cup on. Especially if you could bring in another elite talent.
It's not because Ferland and Bennett.
Every team that has won the Cup since you've been alive, probably, did so because they had a past/present/future Norris Trophy/Selke/Art Ross trophy winner or combination of. I mean, it's not a coincidence.
First off, don’t pretend to know a thing about me personally. You don’t.
Second, Vegas is showing everyone that you don’t need an “elite” player to be a very good hockey team. Trading away key pieces and valuable assets for magic beans are not what wins you championships.
It’s adding complimentary pieces to an already good core. They don’t have to be elite. Just a really solid group from top to bottom.
If you have players that haven’t won prestigious individual awards, but are in the conversation, the fact that it is a very fine line between quality of player in any tier, says that you don’t necessarily have to have the Art Ross, Vezina, or Norris winner, but if you have players that are of that quality with in your group, then you aren’t far off.
Another major contributor to a Cup champ is a teams bottom 6 or “role players”. Many times over the years, Hockey minds that are reputable, unlike you or I, have stated that it’s tgose kind of players that are the difference in winning a championship and determining how far a team will go in the post season.
So yes, a Ferland, Frolik, Bennett, Backlund etc are exactly the type of players that make the difference between a winner and a loser.
First off, don’t pretend to know a thing about me personally. You don’t.
Second, Vegas is showing everyone that you don’t need an “elite” player to be a very good hockey team. Trading away key pieces and valuable assets for magic beans are not what wins you championships.
It’s adding complimentary pieces to an already good core. They don’t have to be elite. Just a really solid group from top to bottom.
If you have players that haven’t won prestigious individual awards, but are in the conversation, the fact that it is a very fine line between quality of player in any tier, says that you don’t necessarily have to have the Art Ross, Vezina, or Norris winner, but if you have players that are of that quality with in your group, then you aren’t far off.
Another major contributor to a Cup champ is a teams bottom 6 or “role players”. Many times over the years, Hockey minds that are reputable, unlike you or I, have stated that it’s tgose kind of players that are the difference in winning a championship and determining how far a team will go in the post season.
So yes, a Ferland, Frolik, Bennett, Backlund etc are exactly the type of players that make the difference between a winner and a loser.
Again, See Vegas.
Edit: or Edmonton.
I love how some use McDavid's deal as a reason not to sign a guy to 12 mil
1. That contracts hasn't even kicked in
2. Oilers suck because of McDavid? lol
Sure adding an elite superstar puts pressure on a GM to fill out the roster but the Flames are set up with a bunch of steal contracts. Adding an elite superstar at around 10-12 million won't cost them all their depth. Not even close.
Throw on top Gaudreau and Monahan are wrapped up for many year and when Gaudreau contract expires so does Gio. It could be years before they feel a real cap crunch
Also lots of teams acquired elite level talent to win Stanley cups
Chara?
Richards and Carter?
Hossa?
Nothing wrong with adding a big name to the Flames already good core
I love how some use McDavid's deal as a reason not to sign a guy to 12 mil
1. That contracts hasn't even kicked in
2. Oilers suck because of McDavid? lol
Sure adding an elite superstar puts pressure on a GM to fill out the roster but the Flames are set up with a bunch of steal contracts. Adding an elite superstar at around 10-12 million won't cost them all their depth. Not even close.
Throw on top Gaudreau and Monahan are wrapped up for many year and when Gaudreau contract expires so does Gio. It could be years before they feel a real cap crunch
Also lots of teams acquired elite level talent to win Stanley cups
Chara?
Richards and Carter?
Hossa?
Nothing wrong with adding a big name to the Flames already good core
Why dont you list the far more numerous side of trades that have been disasters and often take years to recover from.
