I still like what we got from Hartley. I think he instilled a harsh work ethic into people like Johnny, Ferland and Monahan early on. And probably helped build Gio's leadership through a good-cop/bad-cop type of relationship.
These coaches can have short term success no doubt. Hartley, Keenan, Tortorella, Crawford. They're not new. Maybe their time has passed a bit, but I think there will always be a use in organizations at a certain point to instill a little of what they do.
Everyone will have people that hate them. Especially coaches. Their human too, make human errors and have biases, etc... For sure some players will walk away from almost any coach thinking they were treated unfairly. I'm close with someone who played for Mike Keenan in his heyday and still hates his guts to this day. He told me he once had a teammate have to stop him from chopping him down with his stick. But they went to the Stanley Cup finals twice under him, and so did others.
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I confirm (mods can PM me for my legit source) that the general locker room environment under our coaches:
Young players liked Hartley, veterans hated him
Veterans like Gulutzan and his system, young players hate him
Obviously every player will have a unique relationship with their coach but that is the gist of it. Fans also make too big of a deal out of players disliking their coach, I would wager half the players in the league currently don’t like who is behind their bench. Out of the best coaches, MOST of them are not well liked by their players (Babcock, Sutter, Hitchcock). Only top end coach that I have heard is well liked is Quenville
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[QUOTE=Yrebmi;6541246]I should feel that way. I mean, it's only logical. I have never met any of the players and none of them know who I am.
As fans we become emotionally attached to a team. We learn their names, follow their progress, surge with their victories, and suffer from defeats. I find I do care. I want to believe they are all living the dream, not just being well compensated to suffer for my amusement. I want to think of the coach as a teacher or mentor and not a tormentor.[/QUOTE]
so do I, but for kids under the age of 18. I don't care if pro players hate the coach or their jobs. suck it up like everyone else does.
besides, they're not getting paid millions to suffer for your amusement, but they're getting paid to play hockey at a high level. preferably winning while doing do.
while I suppose it would be nice for everyone to love their coach, not once do I give it a second thought if they do.
Hartley gave the flames what they needed at the time and likely would have had more success his last year if his goalies didn't suck so bad.
...Since when is .5 PPG is a bad thing? Especially at his price tag of $1.85M. Last year he had 18 goals. That would have tied him with Johnny for 3rd on the Flames in four less games than Gaudreau played.
I know you didn't want to turn this into a debate about Baertschi, but there is some glaring missing context to your citation of these numbers. There is no way Baertschi would have come close to those 18 goals while playing for the Flames last season. The reason for this is twofold: First, he is not good enough of a player to realistically supplant anyone on the Flames's top-six, and second, his production at that 0.5 pt/gp rate is almost entirely a product of top-line assignments on Bo Horvat's wing in Vancouver. Since Horvat was sidelined with an injury, Baertschi has only a single goal and an assist in six games.
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I know many Flames fans don't want to admit Sven is anything good but he actually is a pretty solid player for the Canucks now.
His cost is fine for the production, but getting these kinds of numbers from your top-line winger who has demonstrated that he cannot generate much offence on his own must be a bit of a concern. He is a good player, but again, I can't see where he might have fit on the Flames roster.
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Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
I confirm (mods can PM me for my legit source) that the general locker room environment under our coaches:
Young players liked Hartley, veterans hated him
Veterans like Gulutzan and his system, young players hate him...
Considering how well so many of the Flames's young players are playing, this seems like something which shouldn't matter, which is essentially what you said anyways.
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Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
I find a lot that is written here by some posters pretty wild.
Yes, you can point at the Flames' win/loss record as being terrible under Hartley, but what can be expected out of a rebuilding team? They were a bottom-5 team once. They were also universally lauded by media everywhere for how hard that team worked, and how fun they were to watch.
The Flames didn't get shelled in the games that he played. I don't remember Edmonton-esqe or any other rebuilding team's type of blowout games. Sure, there were a few every season (still is under Hartley, was under Brent Sutter and Mike Keenan too), but for a rebuilding squad? They were terrific.
You can't point at Hartley's record as being laughably bad and simply ignore the make-up of the team, and what that team was trying to accomplish. Remember the "rebuilds aren't hard" joke that was almost a meme here?
It wasn't a 'flukey season'. It was 1.5 seasons of what a team that is considered an underdog can do with a tonne of hard work and heart. Hartley matched a record for most 1-goal games in the league. Those comebacks were monumental, and they shouldn't just be ignored because "you can't have success by playing from behind all the time" - the Flames showed a tonne of heart in keeping themselves in games. Remember how we used to laugh at the comments from Edmonton? Like when RNH stated so definitively that "you can't come back from 3 goal deficits in this league", and then the Flames do exactly that?
Now people are saying that Gulutzan took a long time to 'break bad habits' that Hartley imposed? Say what again? One of the very best attributes that Hartley had as a coach was his willingness to get on the ice and pull guys to the side to teach them. He was a teaching coach. It is amazing how many media personalities keyed-in on this during the morning skates in away games.
Giordano and Brodie were phenomenal. What bad habits did Brodie have? Backlund became sensational under Hartley. A lot of the team was.
Hartley's team got shelled in the last year he was here, but a tonne of it had to do with the GLARING goalie situation. That team came undone in games playing in front of such inconsistent goaltending.
Now with that being said, it sure sounds like Hartley was a bit much. I like Sarich, and I don't think he is lying or even exaggerating much. However, I would prefer to hear from players who played for a much longer time under Hartley, rather than a half season from someone who wasn't used to being rotated in and out of the lineup at the end of his career. Eventually it will come out, but it hasn't yet, even with a lot of turnover in the last few years. Would be more interesting to hear what players have to say after playing 3 or 4 years under Hartley.
One thing I note from Hartley that to me was unexpected was him NOT forcing guys to fight. Yeah, there was that game in Vancouver... but for the most part, the Flames became too soft under Hartley. Not the picture at all that Scott Parker painted. It was a team that was seemingly more concerned about drawing penalties than taking them.
I myself will always be thankful for Hartley's tenure here. I thought he did a fantastic job in teaching the youth the finer aspects of the game, demanding physical fitness off the bat, and instilling that hard-working culture that was plain to see and easy to cheer for. We as fans didn't have 4 years of 'terribleness' as one should expect from a rebuilding squad. We got entertained nightly, and all expectations were greatly exceeded that playoff run. To dismiss it as 'flukey' I think is to undermine that accomplishment from a team that worked extremely hard to get there, and a team that did it even with all the injuries it had. It was an amazing time as a Flames' fan watching those plucky underdogs succeed with a system that seemed so suited to the composition of the team, and give other teams grief (like the one coach - thought of as Darryl Sutter, but never confirmed - who stated that this team gives them nightmares about how they score).
Hopefully Hartley works on his professionalism (if what is being said about him is true and not exaggerated), and finds his way back to an NHL coaching gig. A Hartley coached team is a lot of fun to watch.
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Just because you get paid millions of dollars doesn’t mean it’s okay that your boss is allowed to be an ####### who uses intimidation tactics and run you out of town based on personal dislike
I confirm (mods can PM me for my legit source) that the general locker room environment under our coaches:
Young players liked Hartley, veterans hated him
Veterans like Gulutzan and his system, young players hate him
Obviously every player will have a unique relationship with their coach but that is the gist of it. Fans also make too big of a deal out of players disliking their coach, I would wager half the players in the league currently don’t like who is behind their bench. Out of the best coaches, MOST of them are not well liked by their players (Babcock, Sutter, Hitchcock). Only top end coach that I have heard is well liked is Quenville
Ironic given Hartley had a lot of veterans and Gulutzan youth.
Much about Hartley has already been said; however, you only have to look 300km to the North to see how not to develop young prospects during a rebuild. In contrast, Hartley helped bring along Monahan, kickstart Johnny, and reset Ferland. Brodie came into his own under Hartley, and even guys like Gio and Backlund improved significantly under his watch.
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Originally Posted by Otto-matic
I mean Hartley did the best with what he had, lets not forget he got horrendous goaltending in his tenure here.
Checked out Kipper, Joey Mac, Berra, Irving, Ortio, Hiller, Ramo
Lol -- I'll take checked out Kipper over all of those other guys any day of the week
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Considering how well so many of the Flames's young players are playing, this seems like something which shouldn't matter, which is essentially what you said anyways.
Maybe they don't like him because Brouwer and Stajan get more than zero minutes of ice time.
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I confirm (mods can PM me for my legit source) that the general locker room environment under our coaches:
Young players liked Hartley, veterans hated him
Veterans like Gulutzan and his system, young players hate him
Obviously every player will have a unique relationship with their coach but that is the gist of it. Fans also make too big of a deal out of players disliking their coach, I would wager half the players in the league currently don’t like who is behind their bench. Out of the best coaches, MOST of them are not well liked by their players (Babcock, Sutter, Hitchcock). Only top end coach that I have heard is well liked is Quenville
There were many reports and rumours that some of the primary young guys were adamant that Hartley had to go. The story, when he was fired, was that he was basically chased out by them.
I don't doubt your source at all, I am simply suggesting that, from the accounts that have been passed around, it was far from that cut and dried.
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I confirm (mods can PM me for my legit source) that the general locker room environment under our coaches:
Young players liked Hartley, veterans hated him
Veterans like Gulutzan and his system, young players hate him
Obviously every player will have a unique relationship with their coach but that is the gist of it. Fans also make too big of a deal out of players disliking their coach, I would wager half the players in the league currently don’t like who is behind their bench. Out of the best coaches, MOST of them are not well liked by their players (Babcock, Sutter, Hitchcock). Only top end coach that I have heard is well liked is Quenville
Do you have any rationale on the reason why? I mean, being known as a player coach, you would think most guys like him. I can get why people hate Hartley, but to hate GG, that's an interesting point.
Just because you get paid millions of dollars doesn’t mean it’s okay that your boss is allowed to be an ####### who uses intimidation tactics and run you out of town based on personal dislike
I would venture to guess that at least half of CP has had a boss like that, myself included, and none of us are being paid millions. Not saying it is OK, also don't think it is entirely a fair characterization of Hartley, but why should professional hockey players get any special treatment beyond their salaries? This is a business, if players excel under those conditions should we really be surprised those methods are used? Sure a guy like Sarich may gripe about it years later, but a lot of guys owe their career years and subsequent raises to Hartley. You think any of them would have been in a hurry to give their raises back in order to be rid of Hartley? I highly doubt it.
I've seen a few posters characterize Hartley as "old school", and I personally think a lot of those "old school" methods are still very effective. Can't help but see the irony of Sarich complaining about Hartley's "old school" methods, and then in the next breath agree with Warrener that the team doesn't hit enough. I liked sarich as a player, especially in his prime, but if he's gonna pick-and-choose then I will also: show up to a game 11 beers in? Old school methods apply.
Do you have any rationale on the reason why? I mean, being known as a player coach, you would think most guys like him. I can get why people hate Hartley, but to hate GG, that's an interesting point.
Obviously it is never super cut and dry, but general preferential treatment of veterans would be the best description I could give.
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