Polonium-210 found in Russian ex-spy's body

[Looger]

NKVD!

seriously they're both pretty bad.

the VAST majority of russian / ukrainian suffering was at the hands of the NKVD, the KGB was also very very bad in eastern europe.

and those 'vague' numbers come from CIA-sponsored government terror in countries that the CIA ran through puppet dictators, something the KGB wasn't anywhere near as efficient at.

doesn't take into account the 'butterfly' effect, honestly doesn't even come close to the one single congo conflict and the CIA-backed dictators that carried out the generations of genocides in africa - something the cubans and russians also did on a smaller scale.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by MacDougalbry

Give us a break... Stalin alone killed 4 million (conservative estimate) to 60 million.

probably at least 20-30, at least.

yikes.

he has that chilling quote: 'one death is a tragedy, a thousand deaths is a statistic.' wow.

when we talk agencies you're right, it's not even close.

stalin relied on the pen to destroy, he relied on starvation to do his dirty work in the ukraine, probably killing 9-10 million at least there.

the KGB was really really bad but it cannot stack up. its foreign adventures didn't have the backing of entire drug trades, the CIA has at times been responsible for over 80% of the cocaine imports into the united states.

the comintern was a separate agency, the KGB was mostly responsible for torturing its own citizens, not foreigners.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Bla bla bla bla bla

Sorry Looger, don't mean any disrespect....but is the same old with you.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Bla bla bla bla bla

Sorry Looger, don't mean any disrespect....but is the same old with you.

it sure is.

i say that soviet internal security isn't as bad as american foreign adventures in terms of body count, and suddenly that means i am a stalin-lover.

same old same old.

say one thing, accused of saying another.

bla bla bla indeed

[Looger]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

And I can assure you if your counting deaths then the KGB would vauguly be responsible for more then 40 million direct deaths through the direct suppression of dissidents in thier own home county, the supression of dissidents in the warsaw pact countries. The open assasinations of foreign intellects, the suspected involvement in the assasination attempt of the pope. Beria's ability to arrest and torture confessions out of innocent people and the exterminations of thier families.Kryuchkov the head of the KGB's involvement in the 1991 coup attemp.

this one WAS ugly.

look, nowhere in this thread did i say the KGB is GOOD.

for god's sakes it's the same friggin thing as america's system now! homeland security is HIRING these wackos! the israeli faction of the neo-cons were trained in the soviet union!

but the VAST majority of the deaths in eastern europe were not orchestrated by the KGB, it was by the NKVD. it's very very simple.

if people want to confuse the two then the case could me made that russian special operations have killed more than american. but that WAS NOT the original question.

unreal.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Looger

it sure is.

i say that soviet internal security isn't as bad as american foreign adventures in terms of body count, and suddenly that means i am a stalin-lover.

same old same old.

say one thing, accused of saying another.

bla bla bla indeed

Aren't you the one that kind of muddled the waters here? I simply was making a sarcastic remark about Putin and you came in and said GB senior would never be involved in any underhanded events. Something that I did not say at all.

I said that you cannot compare GB to Putin. You said yes it was way worse even after I specifically said that the KGB dealt more with its own people, not the secondary consequences of changing government regimes.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Looger

this one WAS ugly.

look, nowhere in this thread did i say the KGB is GOOD.

for god's sakes it's the same friggin thing as america's system now! homeland security is HIRING these wackos! the israeli faction of the neo-cons were trained in the soviet union!

but the VAST majority of the deaths in eastern europe were not orchestrated by the KGB, it was by the NKVD. it's very very simple.

if people want to confuse the two then the case could me made that russian special operations have killed more than american. but that WAS NOT the original question.

unreal.

The two agencies are pretty much one in the same.

[Looger]

secondary consequences DOES NOT EQUAL training, arming, and leading death squads. college of the americas, still in business, as 'the salvador option' gets enacted in iraq.

my remark was offhanded, fine, but i answered you point for point.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

The two agencies are pretty much one in the same.

ah, ok.

so the CIA malfeasance can now be added to the OSS, NSA, FBI?

whatever.

[Red Mile Style]

Originally Posted by Burninator

Phew I almost brought Polonium-210 for lunch today...that was a close one.

See, buying nothing today can SAVE YOUR LIFE!!!!

Oh yeah, and boo to the CIA... you lost my disrespect when you killed Che Guevara in Bolivia.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Looger

ah, ok.

so the CIA malfeasance can now be added to the OSS, NSA, FBI?

whatever.

Here is the evolution of the KGB

December 1917Cheka***February 1922Incorporated into NKVD (as GPU)888July 1923OGPUJuly 1934Reincorporated in NKVD (as GUGB)***February 1941NKGB***July 1941Reincorporated in NKVD (as GUGB)***April 1943NKGB***March 1946MGB***October 1947 – November 1951Foreign Intelligence transferred to KI***March 1953Combined with MVD to form enlarged MVD***March 1954KGB



Any questions?

[jolinar of malkshor]

That really didn't come out the way I wanted it to.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Here is the evolution of the KGB
Any questions?

yeah, just one.

when was the VAST majority of russian / ukrainian deaths?

but whatever.

eastern europian soviet-backed terror had their own organizations, like the stasi. they were helped / watched by the KGB but had their own agendas.

if the NKVD is the KGB, then the CIA is the OSS - which pretty much makes them the gestapo.

also the ISI is the CIA and MI6, by that same logic.

at the higher levels MANY intelligence agenzies appear to merge.

and none of what they get up to is warm and fuzzy. very rarely do they have to answer to their people in any meaningful oversight way.

i just honestly and truly cannot say that putin is any less angelic than ghw bush, and if you disagree that's fine, that discussion is over, i've stated my points, go ahead and blow me away with something i didn't even bring up.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

That really didn't come out the way I wanted it to.

try the federation of american scientists.

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/russia/index.html

some of their links are old, but there's a lot of solid info there, and it's formatted in paste-friendly paragraphs.

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/russia/kgb/su0521.htm

1st Department

United States and Canada

woohoo! we made the first department!

[jolinar of malkshor]

Cool sites...thanks

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Looger

many things that were blamed on 'commies' at the time were later proven by mainstream media to be run by western intelligence, like operation GLADIO in italy / western europe.

BBC documentary from 15-16 years ago:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...eration+gladio
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...eration+gladio
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...eration+gladio

wasn't russians. was us. bombing the bologna train station in 1980. bombing schoolbuses. pretty high and mighty.

Thanks for derailing my thread Looger.

Happens a lot when you become involved.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by Azure

Thanks for derailing my thread Looger.

Happens a lot when you become involved.

hey, no problem.

and thanks for not going after me anymore in threads i'm not even in, believe me i've noticed.

[Agamemnon]

Interesting... it looks like it took 2 people to 'derail' this thread, but only 1 gets called out on it. I think its good when discussion evolves into separate topics. Your thread wasn't generating a lot of discussion on the actual topic. Suck it up.

[fredr123]

For Bobblehead:

Skinner: We can buy =real= periodic tables instead of these
promotional ones from Oscar Meyer.
Krabappel: Who can tell me the atomic weight of bolognium?
Martin: Ooh ... delicious?
Krabappel: Correct. I would also accept snacktacular.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by fredr123

For Bobblehead:

Skinner: We can buy =real= periodic tables instead of these
promotional ones from Oscar Meyer.
Krabappel: Who can tell me the atomic weight of bolognium?
Martin: Ooh ... delicious?
Krabappel: Correct. I would also accept snacktacular.