Harper: Quebec is its own nation within Canada...

[moon]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Actually I think it is in the best interest of Canadians to give more authority to the provinces and downsize the federal government. This would be good for the West as well as Quebec. Also, everything that goes wrong in Quebec wouldn't be blamed on the Feds but rather the provincial party in power. The would defuse separatist talk on both sides of the country.

No I am sure they would still blame the Feds and expect them and other provinces to bail them out of the finacial debt they would get themselves into.

[RedHot25]

Wow, I don't know about this, but I feel almost kind of "dirty" in finding some agreeance with a Conservative idea . Ha just kidding around. I think it is quite good. With out getting too technical, its a quest for recognition of identity when it comes down to it for me. People may say that "hey we in alberta or ontario or wherever" are unique too! But the only time it is really voiced is in opposition to hearing it from Quebec. Its interesting.

Originally Posted by skins

how is this Harper selling out? This new classification is akin to how First Nations people are considered a "Nation within a unified Canada".

Yeah, its the idea of recognition of identity again. And you are right that we have "prescendence" (pardon the horrible spelling) of this already in general terms with First Nations in Canada. Just in this case, it is more territorially based vs non-territorial (i.e while having reserves, significant land claims, etc...the majority of First Nations are scattered throughout the country. And they also exhibit a large amount of intra-group diversity).

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

Quebec is a province, nothing more, and that will never change no matter what we let them call themselves.

Is territory all that matters? (I'm not directing it specifically at you or saying things one way or the other; its just an interesting point to debate).

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

This is special treatment....as far as I am concerned. I said I had no problem it. Quebce has always been given special treatment, always.

I have no problem with it either. Is it special treatment, or just recognition of their uniqueness/distinctness? As already stated above, 1st Nations have had this "Nation within Canada" idea already to an extent.

As well, there is also currently I believe various asymmetrical relationships already in existence in Canada's system - not just including Quebec (someone more versed in things can help me out with this more?).

Anyways just some food for thought.

Cheers.

[Phaneuf3]

I hope this sparks the sepratist movement again. I really want quebec to seperate. gives the alberta seperatist movement that much more of a chance

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

I hope this sparks the sepratist movement again. I really want quebec to seperate. gives the alberta seperatist movement that much more of a chance

Yeah, all 12 of them are probably salivating at this news. I bet they're breaking out the banjos already.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Yeah, all 12 of them are probably salivating at this news. I bet they're breaking out the banjos already.

mine's in the shop getting fitted for a new bridge right now actually

i'll be rippin' out some high quality bluegrass again next wednesday though!

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Yeah, all 12 of them are probably salivating at this news. I bet they're breaking out the banjos already.

While there might only be 12 guys scheming about it actively, there are literally hundreds of thousands that are sympathetic to it under the right circumstances. I've seen polls ranging from 10% to 40%, depending on the source right now, without a major catalyst... but even 10% of the voting age is over 100 000 people.

Quebec separating and putting the country in the position where it has to have a constitutional conference might be the "get out of jail card" places like Alberta are looking for. Another one might be a Carbon Tax, or an NEP 2.0... but we'll just focus on the Quebec one...I don't think the average Albertan would want to stay in a Canada of roughly 24.9 million people, of which Ontario literally holds the majority (12.6m). I don't see BC, Sask and even Newfoundland and the Maritimes wanting to stay in that kind of system. Quebec is a balance of power right now, and I don't think Confederation is appealing without it.

[MacDougalbry]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

While there might only be 12 guys scheming about it actively, there are literally hundreds of thousands that are sympathetic to it under the right circumstances. I've seen polls ranging from 10% to 40%, depending on the source right now, without a major catalyst... but even 10% of the voting age is over 100 000 people.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separat...rty_of_Alberta

The party fielded 12 candidates in the provincial election, held on November 22, 2004. These candidates won a total of 4,680 votes, or 0.5% of the popular vote in the province.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by MacDougalbry

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separat...rty_of_Alberta

The party fielded 12 candidates in the provincial election, held on November 22, 2004. These candidates won a total of 4,680 votes, or 0.5% of the popular vote in the province.

I said sympathetic... not actively voting for a podunk party. Any separatism would come from an established party... not a one-trick pony.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by MacDougalbry

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separat...rty_of_Alberta

The party fielded 12 candidates in the provincial election, held on November 22, 2004. These candidates won a total of 4,680 votes, or 0.5% of the popular vote in the province.

You can't judge their support from those stats. People don't like wasting their vote either. Often people won't throw there votes away on someone who doesn't have a possibilty of getting elected.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by MacDougalbry

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separat...rty_of_Alberta

The party fielded 12 candidates in the provincial election, held on November 22, 2004. These candidates won a total of 4,680 votes, or 0.5% of the popular vote in the province.

lol. in the ridings which they had a candidate the popular vote was around 4-5%. you can only use popular vote for the entire province if they ran a candidate in every riding.

so 4-5% of people actively supported them enough to vote strictly on the seperatist issue. there would be a lot of voters that voted conservative that were sympathetic to the cause and would most likely consider it but saw it beinig more realistic and beneficial to stick with a major party.

[Devils'Advocate]

(1) Harper stole the idea from Michael Ignatieff. I thought it was stupid when Ignatieff said it, think it is stupid now. The only nation within a nation I can think of is Lesotho.

The issue is, from Random House:
1.a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own: The president spoke to the nation about the new tax. 2.the territory or country itself: the nations of Central America. 3.a member tribe of an American Indian confederation. 4.an aggregation of persons of the same ethnic family, often speaking the same language or cognate languages.

It is intellectually dishonest to say something meaning #4 and really hoping that people are stupid enough to think he meant it as #1.

(2) If anyone thinks this is going to change anything in Quebec they are deluding themselves. I had many pationate debates with my french teachers regarding the Bloc and separation. It's not about being a "unique society" or a "nation within a nation". It's about being able to control decisions about their province without interference of a strong federal government. I would think that Albertans would be all for the Bloc getting their way. Breaking Canada into separate entities like the United States, or completely severed is what they want. We've given them as much control as the federal government was prepared to bend (QPP, their own revenue service, special health care control, etc) and to most people it is not enough.

(3) *yawn* Alberta separatism. Wake me up when you actually have a referendum. Until that time, it gives me a good laugh. Most Albertans are able to see what a great country this is UNITED and have no intention of leaving.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by skins

how is this Harper selling out? .

.

Well, Harper did vote against the exact same thing when he was a Reform MP.

Personally, I think it is not really a big deal. I can't see it changin anyone's mind. Federalists will still want to be in Canada, and separatists will still want complete sovereignty.

Quebec has a right to pursue sovereignty, and maybe this is a baby step symbolically, but politically, it is meaningless.

[chris lindberg]

I know the Quebec Government and Cree Indians in northern Quebec have been making so called "Nation to Nation deals) regarding Hydro projects and such.

This I'm not 100% sure of, but I have heard that if the province of Quebec were to actually seperate that they would only leave with about one/third (southern - Montreal, Quebec City) of the actual land mass of Quebec as the First Nations would remain in the country of Canada and have title to the other two/thirds - mostly in the north of the province.

[BlackEleven]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

(1) Harper stole the idea from Michael Ignatieff. I thought it was stupid when Ignatieff said it, think it is stupid now. The only nation within a nation I can think of is Lesotho.

Isn't it sort of the same deal as the various parts of the United Kingdom? England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland technically aren't countries on their own -- they all form the United Kingom. At least that's what this thing seems like to me.

Either way, I think its merely semantics. A good move by Harper though -- he merely calls Quebec a nation without having to give up anything and he appeases some of the separatists. Gives us nothing to gain something.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

Is territory all that matters? (I'm not directing it specifically at you or saying things one way or the other; its just an interesting point to debate).

It isnt so much territory as it is power. Quebec itself has pretended it is a nation for a long time now (ie, referring to the provincial legislature as the national assembly), but the reality is, it is simply the whiniest province in Confederation.

One can sugarcoat the truth all they want, what is underneath does not change. Quebec can call itself a kingdom if they want, they still have to play by the same rules as everyone else. The moment that changes, Confederation is dead.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

One can sugarcoat the truth all they want, what is underneath does not change. Quebec can call itself a kingdom if they want, they still have to play by the same rules as everyone else. The moment that changes, Confederation is dead.

But there are already asymmetrical relationships in place, all over the country....? I.e. that already make provinces different..?

[ernie]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

(1) Harper stole the idea from Michael Ignatieff. I thought it was stupid when Ignatieff said it, think it is stupid now. The only nation within a nation I can think of is Lesotho.

Ignatieff can't decide where he stands on the issue. He's trying so hard to play both sides of the Liberal fence in order to get the leadership of the party that he fears saying the wrong thing.

Early Wednesday afternoon in a round-table discussion with The Canadian Press, Ignatieff was emphatic that a controversial internal Liberal party resolution to recognize Quebec as a nation was not his idea. "Just so it's clear, for the 20th time, the (Quebec) resolution was not initiated by the Ignatieff camp," he said. "It was initiated by people who support a range of candidacies."

Then by the evening:

"It really did start with us, in the leadership campaign, going into small towns in Quebec, reaching out, listening to Quebecers . . . ," he reported.
"They asked us, as a party, to affirm their distinctiveness, their particular place in the history of our country and I was pleased in my campaign to do so. And I think we have every reason to say this started with us."

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2...460924-cp.html

As you can see he's already saying it was his idea again despite mere hours earlier saying it wasn't. The conservatives trumped Ignatieff and the liberal party in this.