The Last Jedi Spoiler thread

[ernie]

The Finn-Rose subplot was part of Poe’s growth. He lost all the bombers and numerous lives and it didn’t bother him. He was busted down some ranks and still he thought he was right. He set up the Finn-Rose mission by agreeing to it and clearing the way with some help from his friends.

How did it work out? They failed and in their failure exposed the escape pods. More lives lost that could have been saved. He needed the bomber loss and the losses of the defenseless escape pods to figure it out enough to call the speeders off and become a leader. After watching a second time the movie does not hang together without that subplot. Well not unless you also massively changed a bunch of stuff happening before. That subplot whether believable or not set up the line from rose which was the theme they were looking for...saving what you love rather than fighting what you hate.

I urge people to see it a second time because when you do I think you’ll see how everything hangs together. Now that says something to how they edited the movie that it can missed the first time but I digress.... I enjoyed the first time and enjoyed it much more the second time.

I don’t really understand the complaints that things were set up by Abrams only to be ignored. I don’t agree. Abrams set up Snoke as the Master and Ren as apprentice. Nothing more. Fans set up Snoke as the new emperor and Ren as the new Vader who wouldn’t take on his master. They want things different but exactly the same! This time around the master was taken out by the apprentice because of the apprentices ambition rather than a move to the light. The apprentice becomes the master and immediately tries to recruit his own apprentice by trying to get her to submit to her own anger/feelings. To me that was much more satisfying.

The parents thing may or may not be true. All we know is that to Ren they are nothing and that’s likely true. It also serves as his leverage to try to get her to turn. And they may be nothing. Why does their need to be a bloodline? It’s not necessary.

Luke served his purpose. They found him. He was expectedly disgruntled but in the end played hero and became one with the force. I again fail to see why that’s a bad thing. This was meant to be a passing of the torch from the old generation to the new and they e been effective in doing that IMO of course.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Ashartus

I enjoyed it, but one thing I find with the new trilogy is everything feels much smaller. Part of that is due to Abrams - the man has no sense of distance or time in anything he's ever done - but in general the scale of the conflict between the First Order and the Resistance feels very small. That doesn't make them bad movies, just a different feel.

I wonder if Abrams will go back on anything that Rian did. Maybe Rey's parents were nothing, but one of them was born on Tatooine, child of the farm girl who provided comfort to that hermit living out beyond the dune sea. I hope he leaves Rey as being unconnected to the previous stories but I think he had different ideas.

I hope they leave Rey's parents as un-important, I'd also prefer that we leave Obi-Wan as a figment of the past, a man burdened by sadness at the destruction that he had caused by his arrogance and lack of vision, who only found some kind of happiness after his death.

[Max Cow Disease]

Originally Posted by Ashartus

I enjoyed it, but one thing I find with the new trilogy is everything feels much smaller. Part of that is due to Abrams - the man has no sense of distance or time in anything he's ever done - but in general the scale of the conflict between the First Order and the Resistance feels very small. That doesn't make them bad movies, just a different feel.

I agree. One thing the prequels did - thanks to Lucas and his love for computer effects and all things CGI - was flesh out the SW universe and make it seem far grander in scope than it ever had. Bad dialogue/acting aside, I loved seeing Coruscant, Naboo, Camino, Mustafar, etc., and all of the visually busy scenes that came along with them.

Abrams more so prefers the sensibilities of the Original Trilogy, and pared the scenes back down using tools like real props and a lower overall volume of visual bling during moments in the Force Awakens. In The Last Jedi, the plot does seem somewhat “contained” within a smaller figurative vessel as well -the only actual world we see is Canto Bight (and Crait I suppose).

Maybe not precisely what you’re referring to, but these are the impressions I’ve had of the three trilogies so far.

[CaptainCrunch]

The one thing that I loved about Lucas was his eye for detail. He basically built a fully functioning complete galaxy. It felt grand in its scale.

Even in the PT, when you first see Naboo from up high and Theed, you see people walking around, the galaxy seemed populated.

Even when you visited star destroyers, the people seemed like they had purpose even the guys in the background.

Lucas struggled with dialogue because frankly he's a big ginormous film nerd and he based his dialogue choices on things like old books and comics, and people in real life don't talk like that.

That's why Empire worked so well and the people felt like people, because someone else wrote the dialogue.

In the PT, the dialogue was stilted because it felt like comic book talk.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by ernie

The parents thing may or may not be true. All we know is that to Ren they are nothing and that’s likely true. It also serves as his leverage to try to get her to turn. And they may be nothing. Why does their need to be a bloodline? It’s not necessary.

I don't think the lack of a bloodline is the issue. Its more about there being no explanation as to why Rey is so powerful with the force and it comes so naturally to her. She just just kind of gets it, with no training, and ends up doing it better than any of her heroes or foes. There have been plenty of non Skywalker force users -- but they at the very least had an implied reason for their powers. I suppose something about her could be revealed in episode 9, but so far her rise seems sort of hollow.

[Max Cow Disease]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The one thing that I loved about Lucas was his eye for detail. He basically built a fully functioning complete galaxy. It felt grand in its scale.

Even in the PT, when you first see Naboo from up high and Theed, you see people walking around, the galaxy seemed populated.

Even when you visited star destroyers, the people seemed like they had purpose even the guys in the background.

Lucas struggled with dialogue because frankly he's a big ginormous film nerd and he based his dialogue choices on things like old books and comics, and people in real life don't talk like that.

That's why Empire worked so well and the people felt like people, because someone else wrote the dialogue.

In the PT, the dialogue was stilted because it felt like comic book talk.

Yeah I didn’t mean to suggest that the prequels enhanced the scope of the galaxy due solely to Lucas’ reliance on CGI. He’s a talented guy who indeed has had a keen eye for detail, and the newer technology available to him with the PT allowed him to double down on portraying those details and fleshing out the universe. It’s a shame those movies were marred by the other issues.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I hope they leave Rey's parents as un-important, I'd also prefer that we leave Obi-Wan as a figment of the past, a man burdened by sadness at the destruction that he had caused by his arrogance and lack of vision, who only found some kind of happiness after his death.

Not only that, I don’t think that (but I have been wrong about timelines before ) Obi Wan would have even been alive to be able to aid in conceiving Rey. Assuming Rey and Ren and similar ages, Obi Wan would have been long dead.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Igottago

So Abrams is at fault for setting up questions that actually tantalized the audience? Isn't that the point?

How did Johnson nail the force? Flying Leia? Lighting strikes from force ghosts? Projecting holograms? Unrelenting power over jedi's with years of training with no effort or learning required? The force officially has no more rules.

This series is doomed. Abrams is going to have to be a next level genius to actually make episode 9 interesting at all.

HE set up questions that weren't answerable while telling any reasonably coherent movie. This mystery solving aspect of Star Wars has no basis in Lore. There were two exciting reveals in Star Wars. Leia and Luke's father. And neither were questions that you debated between movies. So yes Abrams is at fault for asking tantalizing questions without answering them or having an answer for him. He has no track record of satisfyingly closing any mystery he has built.

Rian nailed the the force as a religion where the Jedi aren't some perfect order. The Lucus force is childish in that there is a light and a dark and that's it. The Jedi being responsible for great amounts of war and suffering has always been a conversation of nerds. We're the Jedi actually a force of good in the universe is open to interpretation. Exploring this aspect of the force is far more interesting then the arbitrary good bs evil.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by GGG

HE set up questions that weren't answerable while telling any reasonably coherent movie. This mystery solving aspect of Star Wars has no basis in Lore. There were two exciting reveals in Star Wars. Leia and Luke's father. And neither were questions that you debated between movies. So yes Abrams is at fault for asking tantalizing questions without answering them or having an answer for him. He has no track record of satisfyingly closing any mystery he has built.

He didn't direct this movie. How do you know he had no answer for them aside from the fact that Rian didn't?

The fact that we're even debating which director screwed up the continuity between the 2 movies shows how bad it is. Blame JJ, blame Rian, either way it's horrible as a fan who's watching a trilogy and expects a coherent story. I shouldn't have to sit here wondering which director messed up.

Maybe blame Disney for putting it in the hands of 2 very different directors who apparently don't communicate with each other?
At least if they gave the whole trilogy to the same guy, it may have functioned as a trilogy.

[Roughneck]

Where are people getting the idea Johnson has set up some sort of 'grey' universe?

We are back to the Rebels vs. the Empire and Light Force User (now complete with the old Jedi texts) vs. Dark Force User.

Any interesting direction with the Force was abandoned. Unless of course the broom kid at the end will use his powers for both good and evil, I suppose.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by GGG

HE set up questions that weren't answerable while telling any reasonably coherent movie. This mystery solving aspect of Star Wars has no basis in Lore. There were two exciting reveals in Star Wars. Leia and Luke's father. And neither were questions that you debated between movies. So yes Abrams is at fault for asking tantalizing questions without answering them or having an answer for him. He has no track record of satisfyingly closing any mystery he has built.

Rian nailed the the force as a religion where the Jedi aren't some perfect order. The Lucus force is childish in that there is a light and a dark and that's it. The Jedi being responsible for great amounts of war and suffering has always been a conversation of nerds. We're the Jedi actually a force of good in the universe is open to interpretation. Exploring this aspect of the force is far more interesting then the arbitrary good bs evil.

How were they not answerable? All of those story threads were wide open and could have been taken in many directions -- even the grey area you wanted. All it takes is a little bit of care put into the story and plot lines. But you can't just pretend they didn't exist like this movie ended up doing. Instead of wasting 40 mins on useless things like Finn and his new girlfriend in Vegas they could have done some useful character development. As I stated before, I can understand the need for new direction in the series, but you still need character and story depth. Most people think Kylo Ren is the best new character (I agree), why? Because he actually has an understandable backstory, journey, inner conflict, and motivation for his deeds. Character development 101. The problem is, he is pretty much the only character fleshed out to any extent in this trilogy.

In any case I don't begrudge anyone who enjoyed the film but I just don't see it as a good addition to the series at all. I've had similar conversations with friends and it is interesting how divisive this movie is.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

He didn't direct this movie. How do you know he had no answer for them aside from the fact that Rian didn't?

The fact that we're even debating which director screwed up the continuity between the 2 movies shows how bad it is. Blame JJ, blame Rian, either way it's horrible as a fan who's watching a trilogy and expects a coherent story. I shouldn't have to sit here wondering which director messed up.

Maybe blame Disney for putting it in the hands of 2 very different directors who apparently don't communicate with each other?
At least if they gave the whole trilogy to the same guy, it may have functioned as a trilogy.

The thing is that this sounds a little too 'Amateur Hour' for Disney's normal modus operandi which tends to make me wonder if something else is going on.

A lot of what went down in this movie really does lead me to believe that they're basically trying to wipe the slate clean and move along.

We've got a powerful Force user who is a nobody, they've ditched Han and Luke, we got a new villain that an even newer (albeit conflicted) villain killed, they're ticking off a lot of boxes.

[getbak]

If the box office projections are accurate, The Last Jedi is expected to pass Beauty and the Beast as the highest-grossing film of 2017 before the clock strikes midnight. It will not only be the highest-grossing film released in 2017, but also the highest-grossing film of the calendar year.

Boy, I bet the studio that produced Beauty and the Beast will be mad about this.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Igottago

How were they not answerable? All of those story threads were wide open and could have been taken in many directions -- even the grey area you wanted. All it takes is a little bit of care put into the story and plot lines. But you can't just pretend they didn't exist like this movie ended up doing. Instead of wasting 40 mins on useless things like Finn and his new girlfriend in Vegas they could have done some useful character development. As I stated before, I can understand the need for new direction in the series, but you still need character and story depth. Most people think Kylo Ren is the best new character (I agree), why? Because he actually has an understandable backstory, journey, inner conflict, and motivation for his deeds. Character development 101. The problem is, he is pretty much the only character fleshed out to any extent in this trilogy.

In any case I don't begrudge anyone who enjoyed the film but I just don't see it as a good addition to the series at all. I've had similar conversations with friends and it is interesting how divisive this movie is.

I think the movie had its flaws most notably the Vegas arc but try and tell a story where Rey is a Skywalker or Kenobi that makes sense. They don't work. Snoke as Plagiois or Snoke as Palpatine both undermine Lore significantly. These questions that Abrams asked weren't designed to be answered. You could chase them down and turn your movie into an exposition fest or you can focus on the relationship between the characters which Rian did. The Luke/Rey/Ren Arc was very satisfying.

If Abrams had answers to Snoke and Reys parentage then he should have built his movie to answer those questions. Building Snoke into a more developed character really is Abrams job. And if Abrams disagreed with major plot points then Disney should have gotten involved. I think since Abrams is doing IX it implies he agrees with the major creative decisions

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by GGG

If Abrams had answers to Snoke and Reys parentage then he should have built his movie to answer those questions.

It's a trilogy, not just three independent movies. The plots should have carryover between them.

[Wormius]

This is the Hollywood that people have come to expect. Backstories on every character that spoke a line.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by GGG

HE set up questions that weren't answerable while telling any reasonably coherent movie. This mystery solving aspect of Star Wars has no basis in Lore. There were two exciting reveals in Star Wars. Leia and Luke's father. And neither were questions that you debated between movies. So yes Abrams is at fault for asking tantalizing questions without answering them or having an answer for him. He has no track record of satisfyingly closing any mystery he has built.

Rian nailed the the force as a religion where the Jedi aren't some perfect order. The Lucus force is childish in that there is a light and a dark and that's it. The Jedi being responsible for great amounts of war and suffering has always been a conversation of nerds. We're the Jedi actually a force of good in the universe is open to interpretation. Exploring this aspect of the force is far more interesting then the arbitrary good bs evil.

The exploration of the utility of the Jedi was explored heavily in the prequel trilogy. Lucas has most certainly explored that issue. While the force itself was good/bad, the actual acts of the humans who used it existed in all sorts of grey. The good force users were never infallible. The Jedi were always imperfect, but on a life long quest to improve themselves. Prior to its destruction, the Jedi order itself had become dogmatic and was incapable of actually preventing war and suffering.

Johnson just didn't follow any of the pre-established rules of the force. He was constantly making up new force abilities to solve problems. That's just lazy writing. If anything I'd say he did the opposite of what you're saying. There was no grey, except for Luke, and even then he wasn't really grey, he'd just messed up. All the other force users were 2 dimensional archetypes of good and evil. Kyle and Rae's "struggle" was half-assed and really nothing more than lip service that led to big action scenes. It felt like Johnson didn't finish his own script, with the moving just jumping forward without exploring or resolving the issues.

[pseudoreality]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Not only that, I don’t think that (but I have been wrong about timelines before ) Obi Wan would have even been alive to be able to aid in conceiving Rey. Assuming Rey and Ren and similar ages, Obi Wan would have been long dead.

Force Ghost baby? If Anakin could be conceived by microbes, why not ghost daddy?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by pseudoreality

Force Ghost baby? If Anakin could be conceived by microbes, why not ghost daddy?

"He will touch you inappropriately..."

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Wormius

This is the Hollywood that people have come to expect. Backstories on every character that spoke a line.

No, but is it too much to ask to have the main protagonist to have the foundations of her character setup?

As I stated previously, no one really knows why she's so powerful, why she can easily do jedi things, why she can take on all the most powerful figures of the past and present universe. She just does. Because the force is everywhere. I guess. They forgot the journey part of the hero's journey.

When you have to turn your mind off or make up your own story after the fact to build in the fundamentals, its not a good story, period.