Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by pylon

I think there is really no more point of debating this whole thing. If the City were to hand the Flames an Arena for free at this point in time, they wouldn't take it. And I have actually heard that. The end game here is relocation. Think about the math:

A) With a new FREE arena, what's the team gonna make? $10 Million a year? $20 million if they hit it out of the park, and we have a good dollar?

Or, option:

B) Relocate, sell and cash out. for +/- $500-600 million.... US dollars. Plus the league gets a nice tidy relocation fee.

Edwards & Co. would be brain dead not to cash out in the short term, they'll all be dead by the time they see $500 million in US profits keeping the team here.

So this is what you do:

Let attendance dwindle (which it definitely is).

Not address team issues (Gulutzan, which they aren't) making the fans apathetic, which they are doing very well at. Second market tickets have never been easier to get for pennies on the dollar, even though we have the most star studded roster we've had in 20 years.

Upper management has been absolutely invisible this season, and won't address the media for any reason.

The Flames just need to lose money for a season or two with a downward attendance trend, combine that with the fact an arena will never happen as long as Nenshi is in power, it works perfect for Bettman and the BOG to move the team to Houston with no future prospects.They have a scapegoat in Nenshi, and the dwindling attendance / team revenue. By losing 10 or 20 million/season the next couple of years, CSEC is positioned to win MASSIVELY if the team gets to relocate.

There is just too much money at stake for CSEC to 'do the right thing' and it is clear, Bettman isn't on the side of anyone but the league and owners, and like it or not, that's what he's paid to do. And to be honest, Edwards and Co. would be stupid not to become apathetic themselves for a season or two, to get the chance to move. It would actually be a pretty savvy business move, and I'd do the same thing if I was at the helm. We're talking half a billion dollars. Loyalty only goes so far when those types of numbers are in play.

My prediction is 2018-2019 is the last season for the Flames, as 2019-2020 will be the inaugural season for the Houston ________s.

This is also going to go down like the Ryan Smyth trade, what was it? They were 170k apart? And they looked like fools for being so stingy. If the city took the teams original deal in the first place, we aren't here. We are going to lose an NHL franchise for what amounts to about a $100 million dollar gap. What's that? A bridge and a couple interchanges? Ask every Calgarian out there what they would rather have, what gives them more sense of community and pride. An NHL team?

Or a bridge and two interchanges that'll speed up their morning commute by 4 minutes on a snowy day.

This is a bad post for a lot of reasons and your math is way off. Whoever told you that "they wouldn't stay even if they were handed an arena" is a) a liar; b) a moron.

how much do you think the Calgary Flames would be with a sweetheart arena deal in this market? Edwards could probably sell that team for a fortune.

Why would the flames sell for 480 million to a houston owner when they could sell for 650 to a local owner?

Why would the BOG approve relocation of a profitable franchise when they have at least 5 if not 10 teams bleeding cash?

Why would the NHL move to a market where they are the first banana when they can move to a market where they are 4th, 5th or 6th?

Before you say "because Houston is one of the biggest cities in NA". that doesn't matter. Look at Phoenix. Look at Atlanta. Look at all of the entertainment industries today. It's not about mass appeal it's about milking your dedicated fan base for every, single, last dollar.

The one reason they might move is to show other cities balking at handing over an arena to billionaires that you don't mess with the NHL or they will take their toy and leave.


People can try and use all the logic they want but there is only one reason the Flames leave and it's to mark their territory. Won't give us a new rink? don't think we'll relocate your team? We moved the Calgary Flames, just watch us.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by pylon

I'll be dead honest. If they didn't have that dumpster fire 2.5 hours up the road with their shiny new building, I would probably be less invested in this, and care a whole lot less. But we will automatically become the second rate have-not city in Alberta the second the team moves. I'm petty, and that really bothers me...... a lot.

However, under no circumstance ever in the history of ever, will I cheer for The Edmonton Oilers. I'd rather burn my groin with cigars.

I'll just cheer for my Eastern team the Flyers, the Flames of the east.

This isn't remotely true and you are better than this.

[jlemire]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

This is a bad post for a lot of reasons and your math is way off. Whoever told you that "they wouldn't stay even if they were handed an arena" is a) a liar; b) a moron.

how much do you think the Calgary Flames would be with a sweetheart arena deal in this market? Edwards could probably sell that team for a fortune.

Why would the flames sell for 480 million to a houston owner when they could sell for 650 to a local owner?

Why would the BOG approve relocation of a profitable franchise when they have at least 5 if not 10 teams bleeding cash?

Why would the NHL move to a market where they are the first banana when they can move to a market where they are 4th, 5th or 6th?

Before you say "because Houston is one of the biggest cities in NA". that doesn't matter. Look at Phoenix. Look at Atlanta. Look at all of the entertainment industries today. It's not about mass appeal it's about milking your dedicated fan base for every, single, last dollar.

The one reason they might move is to show other cities balking at handing over an arena to billionaires that you don't mess with the NHL or they will take their toy and leave.


People can try and use all the logic they want but there is only one reason the Flames leave and it's to mark their territory. Won't give us a new rink? don't think we'll relocate your team? We moved the Calgary Flames, just watch us.

Bolded part Question......Where is your white knight Local owner willing to drop $650 Million on the team and then drop another $500-$600 Million to build a rink because they are getting zero help from the city?

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by jlemire

Bolded part Question......Where is your white knight Local owner willing to drop $650 Million on the team and then drop another $500-$600 Million to build a rink

It was in response to the ridiculous assertion CSEC wouldn't even accept a free arena from the city even if it were offered.

Ridiculous because a free arena deal would make the team much more valuable to keep in Calgary via a sale if cashing out was the end goal, pumping up the sale price.

because they are getting zero help from the city?

Shut up with this.


The city's current offer is still the second most generous ever offered to a Canadian NHL team. At no point in these negotiations has "zero help" ever been on the table.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by jlemire

Bolded part Question......Where is your white knight Local owner willing to drop $650 Million on the team and then drop another $500-$600 Million to build a rink because they are getting zero help from the city?

I was specifically responding to the part where Pylon says they wouldn't even stay if they were given an arena.

That said, since the flames aren't officially for sale, I don't know who that "White Knight" owner would be but there are a lot of rich dudes in Calgary who would probably love to own the team.

We haven't even heard from the owners yet, Ken King (I know he speaks for the owners) and the league have threatened but who knows, maybe when it comes down to it Clay Riddell says "screw it" and buys edwards out.

[Snuffleupagus]

Anyone care to estimate the tax losses to Canada/Alberta if the Flames moved to the US? 50 m+ a year sound about right?

[cal_guy]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Anyone care to estimate the tax losses to Canada/Alberta if the Flames moved to the US? 50 m+ a year sound about right?

Probably closer to around $20 million.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

I was specifically responding to the part where Pylon says they wouldn't even stay if they were given an arena.

That said, since the flames aren't officially for sale, I don't know who that "White Knight" owner would be but there are a lot of rich dudes in Calgary who would probably love to own the team.

We haven't even heard from the owners yet, Ken King (I know he speaks for the owners) and the league have threatened but who knows, maybe when it comes down to it Clay Riddell says "screw it" and buys edwards out.

I should clarify one thing, if they were gifted 'free use' of a building they'd say no. If they were handed the title and deed, I'm sure a deal gets done in 5 seconds.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by pylon

I should clarify one thing, if they were gifted 'free use' of a building they'd say no. If they were handed the title and deed, I'm sure a deal gets done in 5 seconds.

They'd love "free use" of a building depending on what that actually entails. No property tax, not required to do anything for it when it's at the end of it's life cycle. That's what they want.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

This is a bad post for a lot of reasons and your math is way off.

I thought it was bad because his conspiracy theory is almost a copy of the plotline from Major League.

Gotta say I think Murray Edwards looked a lot better in the OG...

[Locke]

Originally Posted by pylon

I should clarify one thing, if they were gifted 'free use' of a building they'd say no. If they were handed the title and deed, I'm sure a deal gets done in 5 seconds.

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

They'd love "free use" of a building depending on what that actually entails. No property tax, not required to do anything for it when it's at the end of it's life cycle. That's what they want.

I think the opposite is true actually and that Oling correct, I dont think the CSEC really want to own the building.

Commercial buildings depreciate in value and then someone is stuck with them at the end and CSEC would probably prefer that be the City.

If they were to get a new building then someone has to do something with the 'Dome and that someone is the City, CSEC get to toss the keys in the mailbox and walk away.

[The Fonz]

Originally Posted by pylon

My prediction is 2018-2019 is the last season for the Flames, as 2019-2020 will be the inaugural season for the xxxxx.

Let's make a wager on this.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

The one reason they might move is to show other cities balking at handing over an arena to billionaires that you don't mess with the NHL or they will take their toy and leave.

This is the NHL for decades.

Quebec City refused to fund a new arena. They left.
Hartford refused to fund a new arena. They left.
Winnipeg refused to fund a new arena. They left.

St. Louis agreed to fund a new arena only after they nearly moved to Saskatoon. They stayed.
Buffalo's rumour of relocating after the bankruptcy were huge, but as the arena was publicly funded (and clauses in the agreement preventing relocation that may have been tested by the bankruptcy), the NHL went out of it's way to keep the team in Buffalo.
Pittsburgh agreed to fund a new arena. They stayed.
Nashville funded a new arena. They stayed, despite active attempts to move it being thwarted by the NHL.
Phoenix (Glendale) funded a new arena. They stayed, despite a bankruptcy saga that cost a small fortune. At least until the time being.

Carolina's next up. Publicly funed arena. Despite bleeding money and on the market, it's been stated that any decision to buy the Hurricanes would require a multi-year commitment to stay.

It's a pretty clear message by the NHL. If you pay (or help to pay) for an NHL arena, it will go out of its way to keep the team there. If you don't, well tough luck if they move.

Atlanta's the only real team that goes against the narrative in recent times.

[4X4]

I just find it unbelievable that after how goddamn long the Flames took to FINALLY make their arena proposal, they got all butthurt that the City and Calgarians in general balked at their supermega project. Like, just as the economy began the worst recession since the 80s.

And now the Flames and the NHL want to hold a gun to our head? And meanwhile, the City counters with an offer that is much more reasonable, and then the Flames take their ball and go home instead of negotiating.

If this actually does culminate into the Flames leaving Calgary, I'll be flipping them, and the NHL, the bird.

There was plenty of time, and good political and economic climate to get this done. The Flames never got around to their "announcement" that we waited YEARS AND YEARS for. And by the time they did, they tried to sell us a Bentley, when it was time to buy a Honda.

That's on you, Flames. You spent the whole dance drinking with the boys, and now that the end of the night is near, you're pissed that you haven't bagged a pretty girl. And it's everyone else's fault. Bravo.

[burnitdown]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

This is the NHL for decades.

Quebec City refused to fund a new arena. They left.
Hartford refused to fund a new arena. They left.
Winnipeg refused to fund a new arena. They left.

St. Louis agreed to fund a new arena only after they nearly moved to Saskatoon. They stayed.
Buffalo's rumour of relocating after the bankruptcy were huge, but as the arena was publicly funded (and clauses in the agreement preventing relocation that may have been tested by the bankruptcy), the NHL went out of it's way to keep the team in Buffalo.
Pittsburgh agreed to fund a new arena. They stayed.
Nashville funded a new arena. They stayed, despite active attempts to move it being thwarted by the NHL.
Phoenix (Glendale) funded a new arena. They stayed, despite a bankruptcy saga that cost a small fortune. At least until the time being.

Carolina's next up. Publicly funed arena. Despite bleeding money and on the market, it's been stated that any decision to buy the Hurricanes would require a multi-year commitment to stay.

It's a pretty clear message by the NHL. If you pay (or help to pay) for an NHL arena, it will go out of its way to keep the team there. If you don't, well tough luck if they move.

Atlanta's the only real team that goes against the narrative in recent times.

Atlanta is the only team that relocated in recent times. The examples of Hartford, QC, and Winnipeg are from 20-25 years ago when there was a big push to move teams to southern USA. That didn't exactly go as planned so now teams are generally looking back north (Winnipeg, Seattle, Quebec, etc.).

The NYI just approved a privately funded arena. Is the NHL going to push them out now??

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by burnitdown

Atlanta is the only team that relocated in recent times. The examples of Hartford, QC, and Winnipeg are from 20-25 years ago when there was a big push to move teams to southern USA. That didn't exactly go as planned so now teams are generally looking back north (Winnipeg, Seattle, Quebec, etc.).

Predators to Hamilton was thoroughly squashed.

Coyotes to Hamilton was a "done-deal" that required the NHL to go to courts to stop it.

Penguins to anywhere had a deal in place that the team could be relocated if an arena deal did not go through prior to Lemieux deciding to keep the team and the arena being funded.

These all happened in the last decade.

Winnipeg, Seattle and Quebec have something in common with those southern states though....available arenas.

Originally Posted by burnitdown

The NYI just approved a privately funded arena. Is the NHL going to push them out now??

Don't be absurd. If a team is willing to locate or construct a privately funded arena, that's on them and everyone is happy. But when the NHL has been 'given' literal billions of public funds for their arenas, they are going to continue to support teams that fight for public funding and support municipalities that have contributed public money (so others will continue to do so).

It's not Gary Bettman going in front of the cameras to fight against Nenshi and Calgary for his own personal satisfaction, it's as the face of the NHL ownership group who as a whole support his argument.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by cal_guy

Probably closer to around $20 million.

So every employee of the Flames added together only pay 20m in taxes? Players alone probably pay 25-30

[cal_guy]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

So every employee of the Flames added together only pay 20m in taxes? Players alone probably pay 25-30

The games that are played outside of Alberta/Canada aren't subject to Albertan/Canadian income taxes.

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Winnipeg, Seattle and Quebec have something in common with those southern states though....available arenas.

Winnipeg's arena in terms of revenue generating potential is substantially less than that of the Saddledome or that of Philips arena with fewer seats and private suites.

[Roughneck]

With Balsille the NHL was fighting for its ability to dictate where franchises go. Balsille was trying to strong arm a relocation to a city not many in the league were crazy about at best, and powerful organizations that would have been against it.

The others were basically Boots Del Biaggo wanting to move a team to Kansas City.

Take those two guys away and you have barely a peep about any serious relocation outside of TNSE who "played by the rules" and quietly waited until they were called upon. Now Balsille no longer has the capital to make the kind of strong arm play he was trying (nor be the sole owner of a team), and Boots is in jail. I'd say the relocation talk has been overstated.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by cal_guy

The games that are played outside of Alberta/Canada aren't subject to Alberta/Canada income taxes.

Not just the games but the structure of their pay/bonuses, where they live in the off-season, how long they live there, etc.

Its the accountants that are making a killing when it comes to athletes and their taxes.