Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[RogerWilco]

Originally Posted by Bouw N Arrow

Let me get this straight. You guys wouldn't pay a fee to have an NHL team in the City of Calgary?

I say fee because the rise in taxes for an arena would be likely less than what you pay on starbucks in a year.

I'm sure it'll be awesome to watch the Oilers in Edmonton while The Flames are in Houston.

It's a privileged to have a pro sports team in the city, not a right. I see MOST Calgarian's online want nothing to do with contributing in regards to taxes to make it happen, some prefer to see the team leave. WTF???

What the hell is going on up there?? Such a huge piece of pride and a true gift that the team exists there.

I'm awaiting, Coyotes, glendale blah blah blah.. I personally see the Coyotes gone barring a miracle so spare me.

I really don't understand it. So what if The Flames owners want a Katz deal? Guess what? HE GOT IT! and people in Edmonton seem pretty happy about it

I'm sure that there a lot of single working mothers/fathers and struggling families that have more important needs than their starbucks and flashy new arenas. I'm willing to pay extra for it, but I can completely understand why others would not.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by GGG

TV users pay for watching the flames. Carriage fees and watching adds.

Actually, TV users who don't watch the Flames pay most of those carriage fees. You don't get to opt out of paying for Sportsnet just because you're not a sports fan – unless you cut the cord entirely.

[cal_guy]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Actually, TV users who don't watch the Flames pay most of those carriage fees. You don't get to opt out of paying for Sportsnet just because you're not a sports fan – unless you cut the cord entirely.

All pay-tv providers are required by the CRTC to have a skinny package of channels that does not include Sportsnet.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by cal_guy

All pay-tv providers are required by the CRTC to have a skinny package of channels that does not include Sportsnet.

How many people switched over to these [horrible] skinny packages?

[Kipper_3434]

Originally Posted by jayswin

The majority of the city doesn't go to concerts events or have jobs at the arena.

Has nothing to do with the majority. The fact is that there are more than enough benefits to justify a new arena. More jobs helps everyone as well.

I actually can't think of a single facility in any city where the "majority" of people use it. Silly.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Kipper_3434

Has nothing to do with the majority. The fact is that there are more than enough benefits to justify a new arena. More jobs helps everyone as well.

I actually can't think of a single facility in any city where the "majority" of people use it. Silly.

Lol. More jobs. For the construction part? And then what? Same amount of jobs, but a nice tax bill for all property owners in Calgary.

If simply building something equals more jobs, then lets build a ladder to the moon instead.

[stang]

Originally Posted by stone hands

And people who don’t give 2 red cents about hockey, a luxury leisure pastime? What about them

Originally Posted by 4X4

Lol. More jobs. For the construction part? And then what? Same amount of jobs, but a nice tax bill for all property owners in Calgary.

If simply building something equals more jobs, then lets build a ladder to the moon instead.

There’d be more jobs or at least more working hours at a venue that has high end events more often. (Concerts that presently skip Calgary etc)

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by stang

There’d be more jobs or at least more working hours at a venue that has high end events more often. (Concerts that presently skip Calgary etc)

And the tickets charged should pay those peoples salaries. It’s corporate welfare regardless of how many jobs are produced.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by stang

There’d be more jobs or at least more working hours at a venue that has high end events more often. (Concerts that presently skip Calgary etc)

I know you're an Edmontonian, and that you're not really invested in this decision, so I see your post as either sarcasm, or else blind Edmonton justification. More concerts at Saddledome2.0 aren't going to reduce my taxes at all. I own properties inside Calgary city limits, and I'll be pissed if my taxes go into the Flames' pockets. If they want my money, they can ice a competitive team and sell me a ticket. I used to buy them all the time. I just haven't lately, because they're way overpriced for the product.

Murray Edwards isn't stupid, yet he seems to think that the rest of us are.

[puffnstuff]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Lol. More jobs. For the construction part? And then what? Same amount of jobs, but a nice tax bill for all property owners in Calgary.

If simply building something equals more jobs, then lets build a ladder to the moon instead.

Ladder? pffft

Elevator all the way.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_space_elevator

[FireGilbert]

Off topic but slightly related, the New South Wakes government is proposing to spent over $1 billion dollars replacing two football stadiums in Sydney. One is the Sydney football stadium which was built in 1988 and the other is the Olympic stadium built for the 2000 Olympics.

I have some support for the Olympic stadium rebuild, as it is an oval unsuitable for watching rugby and soccer, however a renovation seems like a more appropriate solution considering it is less than 20 years old. I have no support for the football stadium rebuild though as it is still in decent condition and usually gets crowds under 15k with only a few sell outs a year.


The government justification is that these stadiums are out of date and modern ones are needed to attract big events. I don't buy this though. Events will always be held in Sydney no matter what the stadiums look like because it is a tourist destination and the most populated city in Australia. At the moment it hosts things like the Bledisloe cup, Rugby league finals, rugby sevens, World Cup qualifying, college football, and loads of big name concerts. I don't really see shiny new stadiums bringing in many more events.

To me this reeks of a government finding a reason to give tax payer dollars to sports teams, developers, and construction companies in return for political donations. I wish they were not so corrupt and more like Calgary's city council who seem to be looking out for everyone instead of being in the pocket of businesses.

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-1...08?pfmredir=sm

[FireGilbert]

Dp

[johnnybegaudreau]

Actually this is where you're wrong. And also where things are different from the 90s where they actually did tape up the PL seating (what they then called the nose bleeds). All of that PL seating is bought and paid for by groups like Coop/Sportscheck/Etc. Those groups then in turn sell to their customers for a discounted price whether those seats get filled or not 85% of them are paid for. So, just because you dont see butts in the seat doesn't mean they're not sold out. And if the problem is a perceptual thing - why aren't we seeing the butts in their seats the Flames should really be asking some hard questions: like is their in game entertainment stale. I personally have been a seasons holder for the past 10 years and I Find myself going to less games every year because frankly its just not fun anymore. The team is good. I dont have a problem with the team but going to the dome, paying 8$ for ####ty beer and hearing the same dumb song and watching the same dumb intermission games they were doing in the 90s is getting kinda boring. Time to overhaul the game day entertainment staff and come up with something new. I too recently attended a game in Vegas and loved it. It was entertaining. Calgary needs to freshen things up. But they don't care because people, myself, admittedly, continue to pay for their tickets even if they don't go to the games anymore. I've seriously considered selling my seasons or letting them go. Its been a serious conversation I've had to consider.

[Mr.Coffee]

I think definitely if the Flames miss the playoffs or don’t make something happen this year, the season ticket reservations are going to substantially drop. Especially if there’s no coaching change by then. People are just worn out with it all. And I bet the Flames rise their prices again haha. Same ol, same ol.

[powderjunkie]

Only gave the article a quick skim, but my first thought is this is a reaction to the Melbourne Cricket Ground (100k + stadium).

Apples to elephants comparison with anything here in Calgary. If Montreal had an 80k seat stadium that was relatively well utilized, then Toronto could think about building a big one too. We are less than 1000km from a city larger than us. Sydney is 5000km from a bigger city, and nearly 8000km away from the nearest larger city in a developed nation (Tokyo).

All that said, I certainly wouldn't be supportive of public money if I were in Aus, but it's possible a case might make more sense there than here.

[Kipper_3434]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Lol. More jobs. For the construction part? And then what? Same amount of jobs, but a nice tax bill for all property owners in Calgary.

If simply building something equals more jobs, then lets build a ladder to the moon instead.

Okay. So what are you fine with building then? Calgary is hurting for jobs. HARD. A new arena has to be built eventually. So build it now while people could use the high paying work. Your tax money will be spent regardless. Money is deficit. It comes from debt. The economy only works when money moves quickly. There is literally no reason why providing some funding/tax breaks to build an arena is a bad idea.

As far as taxes increasing for property owners, please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't taxes increase because property value increases. Wouldn't that make investors happy.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Kipper_3434

Okay. So what are you fine with building then? Calgary is hurting for jobs. HARD. A new arena has to be built eventually. So build it now while people could use the high paying work. Your tax money will be spent regardless. Money is deficit. It comes from debt. The economy only works when money moves quickly. There is literally no reason why providing some funding/tax breaks to build an arena is a bad idea.

As far as taxes increasing for property owners, please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't taxes increase because property value increases. Wouldn't that make investors happy.

Honestly man, the schtick about creating jobs and Calgary hurting is already starting to pass. By the time an agreement is done, the proper assessments are completed , and construction starts, we are already on the up

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by FireGilbert

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-1...08?pfmredir=sm

This is the thing about these stadium issues. We focus locally and say these are apples and oranges but deep down they aren’t. No matter where you go sports teams are using emotion to balk at paying their own way. Worst part is, companies in general are catching on and selling their business to the highest bidding City.

The sooner cities and citizens realize this crap happens everywhere the quicker we can move past this type of stuff

[Nacre]

Originally Posted by Kipper_3434

Has nothing to do with the majority. The fact is that there are more than enough benefits to justify a new arena. More jobs helps everyone as well.

Numerous independent studies have shown that no net jobs or other economic benefits are added as a result of building a new stadium or arena. If the Flames leave, people in Calgary will simply re-allocate whatever they would have spent on the Flames to other stuff like restaurants, theatre, skiing, etc.

When the Sonics left Seattle I was enraged. And then I discovered that without my Sonics season ticket I had an extra $3,000 per year to spend on other things. Instead of NBA tickets I have two season tickets for one of Seattle's WHL teams, season tickets at a ski area and money left over for restaurant upgrades and some concerts. Honestly I am better off now without the NBA.

Keeping the NHL in Calgary (or any other major league team in any other city) is purely about emotion.

[stang]

Originally Posted by 4X4

I know you're an Edmontonian, and that you're not really invested in this decision, so I see your post as either sarcasm, or else blind Edmonton justification. More concerts at Saddledome2.0 aren't going to reduce my taxes at all. I own properties inside Calgary city limits, and I'll be pissed if my taxes go into the Flames' pockets. If they want my money, they can ice a competitive team and sell me a ticket. I used to buy them all the time. I just haven't lately, because they're way overpriced for the product.

Murray Edwards isn't stupid, yet he seems to think that the rest of us are.

I'm not an Edmontonian, as a matter of fact I am not even an Albertan.

You're right I am not invested in this decision like you are. Just pointing out that it will create more jobs with more hours. Is it a lot more. Probably not. I am interested in the outcome for sure, however I have not educated myself on either side of the argument to really comment. No justification or motive on my part. Just pointing out it will create more jobs, and more working hours.