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Old 12-22-2017, 12:27 PM   #4401
Enoch Root
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So season ticket holders should pay the entire cost of the arena, and the rest of the city gets the benefit for free.

That seems reasonable.
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Old 12-22-2017, 12:30 PM   #4402
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First of all, how does anybody not buying a ticket get to use it?

Second, those will be the ticket prices. The Flames are not going to hold back; they will charge as much as the market will bear. So the only difference is how much taxpayer money is going to the Flames' profits?

If the Flames came back with an offer to freeze ticket increases, I would certainly be onboard with a taxpayer funded arena.
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Old 12-22-2017, 12:34 PM   #4403
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Actually if the Flames paid $600M on their own for a new arena, just on Flames ticket prices alone they would have recovered the cost in 18 years, and on a 30 year lifespan of an arena be up $484 million. Or about $16M per year over and above what they bring in now.
The Flames' owners are mostly in their 70s. So 18 years before seeing any money is a stretch for them.

But in any event, your finances make no sense IMO. Paying $600M would be on top of the expense of running the hockey team, and operating the property, then splitting HRR with the players. Are you suggesting the Flames have net profits of $70M per year on ticket sales alone?

Plus, as rich as they are, they can't afford $600M out of their pocket - it has to be financed, so add interest and fees.
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Old 12-22-2017, 12:35 PM   #4404
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That brings about a completely different question- what is so "bad" about the Saddledome to make it worth spending that much on a new arena.

I get it- the new arenas are way nicer. I just got back from Vegas and had a blast at the game. However we still had to wait in line for beer during the intermission; to the point where we didn't have time to hit the souvenir shop. What made the Vegas experience great was the sound and light shows. Both of those could be done at the Saddledome, but at the Dome there is a need to dampen things for the corporate crowd. A new Calgary arena tailored for the corporate crowd would still be not as flashy of a gametime show.
I am fine with the Dome. My two biggest complaints with Flames games these days are that the music/production is not really adding to the intensity of the games, and the crowd is very quiet on a lot of nights. It would be great if our building was intense to play in. I don't think a new arena solves that.
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Old 12-22-2017, 12:47 PM   #4405
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First of all, how does anybody not buying a ticket get to use it?

Second, those will be the ticket prices. The Flames are not going to hold back; they will charge as much as the market will bear. So the only difference is how much taxpayer money is going to the Flames' profits?

If the Flames came back with an offer to freeze ticket increases, I would certainly be onboard with a taxpayer funded arena.
They watch their favourite team on TV (because there is an arena to host a team)

They go to other events

If the city hosts Olympics, or other events, everyone benefits from that as well.

I am constantly amazed how people don't see that they benefit from the arena, even if they aren't attending games.
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Old 12-22-2017, 01:00 PM   #4406
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And people who don’t give 2 red cents about hockey, a luxury leisure pastime? What about them
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Old 12-22-2017, 01:12 PM   #4407
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And people who don’t give 2 red cents about hockey, a luxury leisure pastime? What about them
Concerts, events, jobs.
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Old 12-22-2017, 01:22 PM   #4408
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Concerts, events, jobs.
The majority of the city doesn't go to concerts events or have jobs at the arena.
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Old 12-22-2017, 01:38 PM   #4409
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And people who don’t give 2 red cents about hockey, a luxury leisure pastime? What about them
And we're back to this. As has been explained countless times already, public expenditures rarely, if ever, serve everyone. The very idea of public funding is that costs are shared in order to deliver things that otherwise wouldn't be viable, and different services serve different people.

And yes, some public projects are about leisure or quality of life. Not all are necessities.
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Old 12-22-2017, 01:41 PM   #4410
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So season ticket holders should pay the entire cost of the arena, and the rest of the city gets the benefit for free.

That seems reasonable.
Wow! user pay? what a novel concept!

To say TV viewers are getting a benefit from the arena is a huge reach. Technically a viewer in Calgary can cheer for any team (and watch that game from Calgary) - Calgary having a hometown team doesnt necessarily benefit a typical TV viewer.
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Old 12-22-2017, 01:42 PM   #4411
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And we're back to this. As has been explained countless times already, public expenditures rarely, if ever, serve everyone. The very idea of public funding is that costs are shared in order to deliver things that otherwise wouldn't be viable, and different services serve different people.

And yes, some public projects are about leisure or quality of life. Not all are necessities.
Most are not private enterprises.

Last edited by Cappy; 12-22-2017 at 01:46 PM.
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Old 12-22-2017, 01:55 PM   #4412
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Wow! user pay? what a novel concept!

To say TV viewers are getting a benefit from the arena is a huge reach. Technically a viewer in Calgary can cheer for any team (and watch that game from Calgary) - Calgary having a hometown team doesnt necessarily benefit a typical TV viewer.
Same arguments over and over. There tends to be a few hundred thousand people watching games and - in an amazing coincidence - they almost all reside in southern Alberta. It's almost like fans tend to have a connection with the geographically local team.

If 'TV fans' don't care about the Flames, why do we have this board? why do we have countless threads having the same discussions? why is there so much angst towards KK and Bettman whenever the idea of moving the team is brought up?
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Old 12-22-2017, 01:58 PM   #4413
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So season ticket holders should pay the entire cost of the arena, and the rest of the city gets the benefit for free.
So fast food eaters should pay the entire cost of the restaurant, and the rest of the city gets the benefit for free.

That seems reasonable.

_____________________________

So shoppers should pay the entire cost of the department store, and the rest of the city gets the benefit for free.

That seems reasonable.

_____________________________

So movie goers should pay the entire cost of the cinema, and the rest of the city gets the benefit for free.

That seems reasonable.

______________________________

Etc. Etc. Etc. Consumers provide business revenue that cover the business cost.

You're implying fictional benefits or at best easily transferable intangible ones.
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Old 12-22-2017, 01:59 PM   #4414
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Most are not private enterprises.
That is true, most aren't.

But we have to remember that the Flames (the team) and the arena are two different entities and two different businesses, even though they are intricately related.

And we also have to remember that only the very largest cities have the economics to make an entirely privately funded arena viable. Cities the size of Calgary can't, and thus choices have to be made.
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Old 12-22-2017, 02:02 PM   #4415
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So fast food eaters should pay the entire cost of the restaurant, and the rest of the city gets the benefit for free.

That seems reasonable.

_____________________________

So shoppers should pay the entire cost of the department store, and the rest of the city gets the benefit for free.

That seems reasonable.

_____________________________

So movie goers should pay the entire cost of the cinema, and the rest of the city gets the benefit for free.

That seems reasonable.

______________________________

Etc. Etc. Etc.

You're implying fictional benefits or at best easily transferable intangible ones.
These examples are pathetic. But sure, let's pretend that we want to watch people eating in a restaurant on TV tonight. And let's pretend that the economics of a restaurant and an arena are the same.

If you don't want to have a local team, just say that. But these arguments (over and over and over) are ridiculous
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Old 12-22-2017, 02:04 PM   #4416
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No one wants to read the same arguments over and over and over, for the umpteenth time. So I'm done.
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Old 12-22-2017, 02:09 PM   #4417
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Why are people pretending like the options here are fully private or fully public?


The city currently has an offer on the table that is the second most generous offer any public entity has offered an NHL team in Canada. The city has an offer on the table that has the city and users being on the hook for more than half of construction debt.


This has absolutely nothing to do with financial viability or market size or anything else. It is the Flames owners wanting what Katz got, and are mad they can't get it.
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Old 12-22-2017, 02:12 PM   #4418
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These examples are pathetic. But sure, let's pretend that we want to watch people eating in a restaurant on TV tonight. And let's pretend that the economics of a restaurant and an arena are the same.
Sure... while we're at it let's pretend that all those examples don't operate on exactly the same principle of season ticket holders & arenas. Users of all those facilities provide the revenue that justifies their operation... hockey shouldn't be one iota different.
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Old 12-22-2017, 02:13 PM   #4419
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No one wants to read the same arguments over and over and over, for the umpteenth time. So I'm done.
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Old 12-22-2017, 02:14 PM   #4420
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So season ticket holders should pay the entire cost of the arena, and the rest of the city gets the benefit for free.

That seems reasonable.
Will you even notice your personal higher taxes??
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