Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

These threaten to move things are new this go around in Calgary.

The owners not paying players was hurting attendence in the 90s when every good player who came through the Flames was shipped out of town once they started to get paid (there was no cap then so less being cheap and more being priced out of the market)

My point is that the actual threaten to move things are non-existent in Calgary this time around (Francis aside). They were actually much more overt (and real) in the 90s.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

My point is that the actual threaten to move things are non-existent in Calgary this time around

... what?

Bettman

“We were having a theoretical conversation about the importance of arenas and major league sports franchises to a city, which he indicated he didn’t believe in. I said, ‘Well … what if the end result of this is that the Flames have to move?’

Burke

In what has been the bluntest talk yet about the future of the Calgary Flames, president of hockey operations Brian Burke said the NHL team will move if a new arena is not built.

King

The facts are we need a solution and if it is deemed that there is no made-in-Calgary solution we will have to make a decision at that time, which logically could include deciding to move the team

... seriously. C'mon man don't try to sell us that they're not threatening to move. They're 100% threatening to move, they're just saying "We're not threatening to move"... and then proceeding to threaten to move. If some thugs were to walk up to you and say "we're not going to threaten to kill you if you don't hand over your wallet, we'd just kill you" would you not report being mugged to the police?

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

My point is that the actual threaten to move things are non-existent in Calgary this time around (Francis aside). They were actually much more overt (and real) in the 90s.

Alright. Was taking about the situation in Ottawa and Melnyk who's always complaining about something. Flames ownership haven't overtly crossed that line and have always spent to the cap.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Alright. Was taking about the situation in Ottawa and Melnyk who's always complaining about something. Flames ownership haven't overtly crossed that line and have always spent to the cap.

Maybe this has been posted but Melnyk is already floating that the Senators could move;

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/o...-disaster-yes/

“I’m not going to blow a lifetime of working hard to support a hockey team. It’s not gonna happen,” Melnyk said at Parliament Hill, prior to puck drop on the Senators alumni game.

“The bigger question is whether I’m prepared to blow all that money I made over many years in a different industry in a different country.

[troutman]

Bettman: 'The Senators aren't going anywhere'

https://www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/bettman...ywhere~1286449

Where's that support for Calgary, Gary?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Parallex

... what?

Bettman


Burke


King


... seriously. C'mon man don't try to sell us that they're not threatening to move. They're 100% threatening to move, they're just saying "We're not threatening to move"... and then proceeding to threaten to move. If some thugs were to walk up to you and say "we're not going to threaten to kill you if you don't hand over your wallet, we'd just kill you" would you not report being mugged to the police?

That stuff is weak tea, and always in response to a question about "would you ever move?" What would you have them do - lie? Of course there's always that possibility.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

https://twitter.com/JSportsnet/statu...30674713038848

edit: added link to twitter source.

[The Fisher Account]

Shut up Gary

[Mass_nerder]

Man I hate Bettman.

[monkeyman]

More bluster and bluffing from the NHL and the Flames. Listen, you tried influencing an election, the people called you on it, sit down and negotiate already instead of playing all these games.

[sa226]

Its just strange how they have decided to send their message. With threats. Its not one offs either, its a consistent threat to leave. In the media to boot.

If they tweak the message a tiny bit to "We love the city of Calgary as a hockey town and its devoted fan base, we are frustrated by the lack of progress and we want something that works, but this is a business and we need to consider the long term financial success of the franchise." They could gain some public sentiment.

Nope, its:

"We hate Nenshi, don't vote for him. We're taking our ball and going home until you give us what we want."

[monkeyman]

It's because they know how much hockey means to this city, the fans. They're essentially trying to hold the team for ransom, but they overestimate just how badly were willing to pay. They should either step up or shut up. the fact they won't do either is telling.

[Roughneck]

I can see where Bettman is coming from. In Calgary the deal is stalled because the city wants some sort of return on their investment, which the Flames just can't afford to do.

Meanwhile in Ottawa, they're open for business, with city administration making statements like:

'Any liability the city agrees to take on would also "need to be secured by assets or a mechanism to recover the costs from the benefiting area," staff wrote.'

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa...ions-1.4375758


It's pretty clear who's negotiating in good faith and who isn't.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

I can see where Bettman is coming from. In Calgary the deal is stalled because the city wants some sort of return on their investment, which the Flames just can't afford to do.

Meanwhile in Ottawa, they're open for business, with city administration making statements like:

'Any liability the city agrees to take on would also "need to be secured by assets or a mechanism to recover the costs from the benefiting area," staff wrote.'

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa...ions-1.4375758


It's pretty clear who's negotiating in good faith and who isn't.

From that article they aren't even negotiating or asking the city for money yet.

Should the Sens-backed group propose to get help in funding its arena and development, the city would need to do due diligence to ensure taxpayers are protected, staff wrote.

[GioforPM]

Wait - that answer to a question in an interview is supposed to be part of a "constant threat to move"? I see nothing in that answer that's either aggressive or unfactual. It's pretty clear to me that the Flames don't see a clear path to a profitable deal for a new building. And neither does the City, absent the nebulous value of intangibles, or an Olympic bid. So its entirely possible that no deal is the best deal either side can come up with.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Wait - that answer to a question in an interview is supposed to be part of a "constant threat to move"? I see nothing in that answer that's either aggressive or unfactual. It's pretty clear to me that the Flames don't see a clear path to a profitable deal for a new building. And neither does the City, absent the nebulous value of intangibles, or an Olympic bid. So its entirely possible that no deal is the best deal either side can come up with.

I bet both sides will move from their positions, however no clue on the timing....

City has to understand it would be a massive mistake to allow the Flames to relocate....

Flames owners I also believe will move from their position.

Its all about pressure...

As for the comments from the NHL, its obvious the Flames need a new arena....

I just came back from Las Vegas, Arena and location are outstanding...

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by flambers

I bet both sides will move from their positions, however no clue on the timing....

City has to understand it would be a massive mistake to allow the Flames to relocate....

Flames owners I also believe will move from their position.

Its all about pressure...

As for the comments from the NHL, its obvious the Flames need a new arena....

I just came back from Las Vegas, Arena and location are outstanding...

Yeah, I've been to that arena (for a concert not a game). The seating arrangements and options are better than Edmonton IMO, and they've rejuvinated that area of the strip quite nicely - lots of mid level eating spots and access is outstanding considering the inherent traffic issues.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It's pretty clear to me that the Flames don't see a clear path to a profitable deal for a new building.

Actually if the Flames paid $600M on their own for a new arena, just on Flames ticket prices alone they would have recovered the cost in 18 years, and on a 30 year lifespan of an arena be up $484 million. Or about $16M per year over and above what they bring in now.

Never mind concerts, Hitmen, Roughnecks, etc. Then add in parking. Make no mistake about it- with a 100% Flames funded arena they stand to make a boatload of extra money.

That's why I say the Flames are being greedy. They don't want to just make $484M extra in the next 30 years, they want to almost double that. I'm fine with the Flames being profitable. I am not fine with that extra profit coming right out of tax dollars.

Short version of my numbers, current arena holding 19,000 seats at an average price of $100. New arena with 18,000 seats. With Edmonton type increases and extra premium seating, bring the average up to $150 per seat. I did also email Ken King to confirm my numbers, and he danced around the question. I emailed him back to ask again how far off my numbers were; and he didn't reply back the second time.

[RM14]

I don't think there is any room to increase the average ticket prices by $50. With more empty seats than ever in all pro sports, the idea of building a new arena is becoming less of a good idea.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Flames tinker with the idea of boarding up/tarping off the PL's soon. The game is not even sold out for tonight against the Montreal Canadiens... on a Friday night to kick off the holidays.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by RM14

I don't think there is any room to increase the average ticket prices by $50.

Keep in mind that's also just the average. By increasing the number of box and club level seats, and taking away the PL in a new arena, you get to most of that already. The Oilers increased their ticket prices by 20-40%, increased the number of premium seats and took away cheap seats.

So remove 3000 of the $40 seats and replace them with 2000 seats in the $300 range. Move everybody else up 30%.

However you do bring up a good point. With us being a few years into cheap oil, there may not be as much of a demand as before. That brings about a completely different question- what is so "bad" about the Saddledome to make it worth spending that much on a new arena.

I get it- the new arenas are way nicer. I just got back from Vegas and had a blast at the game. However we still had to wait in line for beer during the intermission; to the point where we didn't have time to hit the souvenir shop. What made the Vegas experience great was the sound and light shows. Both of those could be done at the Saddledome, but at the Dome there is a need to dampen things for the corporate crowd. A new Calgary arena tailored for the corporate crowd would still be not as flashy of a gametime show.