Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

Toronto: Private money
Montreal: Private money
Ottawa: Private money
Vancouver: Private money
Winnipeg: 70% Private, 30% Public

The "one" city, eh?

Look out everyone Roughneck is spreading fact based propaganda!

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Jbo

Just to be very clear, I am no fan of Francis. Just thought the article was worth positing for discussion purposes.

I didn't think so. I struggle to imagine how anyone could actually find Francis' article even remotely compelling.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by transplant99

...Again, Calgary seems to feel it's the one city in Canada that is smarter than everyone else..under the "leadership" of the same guy in every instance.

I don't know if your characterization of Nenshi's leadership is accurate or not, but I will say that Calgary's position in this is NOT WRONG, even if the mayor comes across poorly. The professional sports model which requires massive public subsidies is broken. Calgary may be the first city to make this point, but it certainly will not be the last.

[RM14]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

Toronto: Private money - Works! But, we are nowhere near comparable to T.O.
Montreal: Private money & Didn't Work, owners bailed and lost
Ottawa: Private money & Really Didn't work, perusing new arena already
Vancouver: Private money & Didn't work, owners bailed and lost
Winnipeg: 70% Private, 30% Public - I think it's working? But, I would rather the Dome than MTS.

The "one" city, eh?

Private Money happened, and did not work in most cases.

[Loyal and True]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

I’m curious how you became or remain so rich paying out bonuses while you’re struggling to pay your employees’ salaries. Seems like a fiscally irresponsible approach. But I guess the Econ 101 crowd can debate that.

You still haven’t explained how this arena negotiation is affecting your business.

Yes because the first place to look for business advice would be the Econ 101 crowd. No thanks but I prefer to talk shop with people that actually have experience in running business. Bonuses are a lot smaller but you still pay some when you can. You seem to make light of business "struggle" like you don't believe it exists. It doesn't mean your business is insolvent. There are lots of challenges that employees don't have to deal with.

Anyway, quit changing the subject away from the arena

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

When did I say I voted for Smith? Also how can a mayor be truly popular if half the voters didn't vote for him? Like I said the fact that Smith got nearly 44% of the votes is telling of just how bad a lot of Calgarians wanted Nenshi out.

Who’d you vote for?

I think you’re really splitting hairs here while ignoring the impact that an emotionally charged attack campaign can have on an election.

I’d argue that 44% percent of the city voting for an “empty paper bag” candidate who didn’t have a “smidgen” of good ideas says more about how uninformed yet easily influenced voters can be as opposed to how good or bad of a job nenshi is doing.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by RM14

Private Money happened, and did not work in most cases.

So will those teams be moving to Houston as well?

[RM14]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

So will those teams be moving to Houston as well?

No, because their arenas were suitable to current standards. New owners benefited massively on the previous owners work.

[Loyal and True]

There should be private money and public money.

What about convention centres in Canada? Every big city has them and spends lots of money on them. Are these privately owned and operated? Or are they owned by governments and crown corps? Do they make lots of money for shareholders? How much would private investors spend to build one? Is there a benefit to the city?

[GioforPM]

Frankly, I don't think the arena was as big of an election issue as posters make it out to be. And I don't think that CSEG tried some big organized campaign against Nenshi. I do think they timed their announcement about negotiations to try and create an election issue and put pressure on Nenshi and to the extent they did, it backfired.

I also think a mayor who got the lowest margin of any incumbent since Klein beat one termer Ross Alger shouldn't get too comfortable. The last two incumbents saw the writing on the wall with much higher margins and got out before being defeated the next time (and then couldn't go anywhere else in politics). It doesn't help that Smith was an inept challenger IMO. The result being that, if the City can't get a deal done, for the right or wrong reasons, Nenshi will probably wear it.

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

Toronto: Private money

6M Metro Population

Montreal: Private money

4.5M Metro Population

Ottawa: Private money

Developer (Terrace) and Mortgage holder (Covanta energy) went bankrupt

Vancouver: Private money

3M Metro Population

Winnipeg: 70% Private, 30% Public

That 30% was money given to build the arena, as in it's gone and the various levels of government that contributed it will never see it again. That's different than the city of Calgary's offer which was a loan. The MTS centre also was purchased by True North below what it cost to build and they are the recipient of rebates worth tens of millions each year.

So the only real comparables are Ottawa and Winnipeg, the developer in Ottawa went belly up and Winnipeg has a deal that is a heck of a lot sweeter than what the CoC offered up.

[sureLoss]

Dreger and LeBrun: No belief that Flames will be moved out of Calgary

https://www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/dreger-...algary~1282979

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Frankly, I don't think the arena was as big of an election issue as posters make it out to be. And I don't think that CSEG tried some big organized campaign against Nenshi. I do think they timed their announcement about negotiations to try and create an election issue and put pressure on Nenshi and to the extent they did, it backfired.

I guess Bill Smith must have paid out of his own pockets for “vote for bill smith” to be prominently displayed on the jumbotron during home games.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Loyal and True

There should be private money and public money.

What about convention centres in Canada? Every big city has them and spends lots of money on them. Are these privately owned and operated? Or are they owned by governments and crown corps? Do they make lots of money for shareholders? How much would private investors spend to build one? Is there a benefit to the city?

Telus is owned by the City. I believe BMO is owned by the Stampede.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

I guess Bill Smith must have paid out of his own pockets for “vote for bill smith” to be prominently displayed on the jumbotron during home games.

I think you are correct, insofar as he paid for it out of his advertising budget (which was funded by his donors).

Nenshi could have bought major ads as well, but that's never been his campaign model.

ETA: Did the Sun donate the full page ad for Smith?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Loyal and True

There should be private money and public money.

What about convention centres in Canada? Every big city has them and spends lots of money on them. Are these privately owned and operated? Or are they owned by governments and crown corps? Do they make lots of money for shareholders? How much would private investors spend to build one? Is there a benefit to the city?

I can't speak to any of the ownership questions, but busy convention centres are hugely beneficial to a city. I am part of a professional society that holds an annual meeting that is attended by 10,000 people from all over the world. That is four or five days' worth of accommodation, food and beverage revenue multiplied by 10,000 as well as a small added boost to local tourism, and that is for but ONE weekend. The revenue that a local sports team might generate is paltry compared to this.

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I think you are correct, insofar as he paid for it out of his advertising budget (which was funded by his donors).

Nenshi could have bought major ads as well, but that's never been his campaign model.

I wouldn’t want to be the sales guy bringing in that advertising sale to the Flames.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I think you are correct, insofar as he paid for it out of his advertising budget (which was funded by his donors).

Nenshi could have bought major ads as well, but that's never been his campaign model.

I’m sure the flames would have been more than happy to put vote for nenshi on the jumbotron.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by monkeyman

I wouldn’t want to be the sales guy bringing in that advertising sale to the Flames.

Unless they managed to secure their arena deal in exchange, they would have probably given him Ken King’s job.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

The MTS centre also was purchased by True North below what it cost to build and they are the recipient of rebates worth tens of millions each year.


So the only real comparables are Ottawa and Winnipeg, the developer in Ottawa went belly up and Winnipeg has a deal that is a heck of a lot sweeter than what the CoC offered up.

Having the Flames pay for 70% of the arena, negotiating with the province for property tax breaks (meaning they'd own the arena putting that declining value liability in their court rather than the city's), and letting the city charge an entertainment tax on every ticket sold and then rebate a bunch of it then sign me up. Put that deal in front of the city and they'd sign without much hassle too i'd imagine.

It means the Flames lose the ticket tax as a form of funding, and contribute a whole lot more cash than they were ever willing to contribute, because it is a tax rebate from a city revenue source, and not a loan guarantee. But yeah, done deal.