If Wayne Gretzky played today, is he better than Sid? Is 99 the GOAT?

[rotten42]

Originally Posted by icecube

Huge gap between The Great One, Super Mario and any other player I've seen play. Never watched Orr or Howe, that's before my time.

Wayne was three steps ahead of everyone else and Mario was just the perfect specimen combined with the sickest skill I've ever seen. Those guys made Jagr, Sakic, Yzerman etc. look like average players.

Yup...pains me to say it being a Flames fan but Gretz was just that good. His vision on the ice was unparalleled.

[Canehdianman]

I apologize if this had been posted, but....

You millennials know nothing.

[CroFlames]

I don't want to wade into the argument per se, but I want to add this.

Crosby is the most complete hockey player who ever lived.

And I'm not even one of those Crosby fanboys. I'm more partial to Ovi if I was forced to pick a favorite non Flame. With all due respect to Wayner, he was all offense. Crosby can do it all, and does it all at an elite level.

[blender]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I don't want to wade into the argument per se, but I want to add this.

Crosby is the most complete hockey player who ever lived.

And I'm not even one of those Crosby fanboys. I'm more partial to Ovi if I was forced to pick a favorite non Flame. With all due respect to Wayner, he was all offense. Crosby can do it all, and does it all at an elite level.

OK. Maybe he is. But does that make him the greatest of all time?
I don't think so.
I don't remember seeing Gretzky get scored against a lot. He was always moving the puck up the ice or scoring against his opponent.

[rotten42]

Originally Posted by blender

OK. Maybe he is. But does that make him the greatest of all time?
I don't think so.
I don't remember seeing Gretzky get scored against a lot. He was always moving the puck up the ice or scoring against his opponent.

Exactly. He didn't need to play defence when he was too busy piling up the points.

[CliffFletcher]

Gretzky was mainly a passer - undoubtedly the best the game has seen. His vision, instincts, and hands were without rival.

Goal scoring wasn't really his thing. Except for the fact he holds the records for the fastest 50 goals, the most goals scored in a season, and the most goals scored in a career.

So at the aspect of hockey that wasn't his greatest strength, Gretzky was still the best in the history of the NHL.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

I think, all things being equal, Gretzky coming up in the new millennium would be just as dominant compared to his peers as he was in the 80s.

This is the key distinction. Coming up today? Yes, he would probably be dominant. The talent would still be there. But if you just took a fully developed, prime Gretzky and put him in a time machine 30 years into the future? Not nearly so much. The level of athleticism now is just light years beyond where it was then.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

This is the key distinction. Coming up today? Yes, he would probably be dominant. The talent would still be there. But if you just took a fully developed, prime Gretzky and put him in a time machine 30 years into the future? Not nearly so much. The level of athleticism now is just light years beyond where it was then.

Then how is Jagr still playing in the league?

How come a 37 year old Sakic got 100 points in 2007?

Why was a 40 year old Lidstrom the clearly best defender in 2011?

How was Selanne putting up a 40 goal pace in 2011 as a 40 year old?

Gretzky and Lemieux played against some of the elite players of "today" and made them their bitch.

[TheFlamesVan]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I don't want to wade into the argument per se, but I want to add this.

Crosby is the most complete hockey player who ever lived.

As much as I want to agree with you, #4 takes that honour.

But Crosby is one of the greatest ever, no doubt.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by TheFlamesVan

As much as I want to agree with you, #4 takes that honour.

But Crosby is one of the greatest ever, no doubt.

Is Crosby a better player than Flames-great Jaromir Jagr?

[TheFlamesVan]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Is Crosby a better player than Flames-great Jaromir Jagr?

Are you specifically asking me because you find my opinions fascinating? Because I'm not sure what that has to do with what I wrote.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by TheFlamesVan

Are you specifically asking me because you find my opinions fascinating? Because I'm not sure what that has to do with what I wrote.

No—not you specifically. This is more of an open question, since the OP at one point stated he believes that Crosby is the best of all time.

I think it is undeniably true that Gretzky, Orr, and Lemieux were better players than Crosby, but I think a more fair comparison is there to be made between Jagr and Crosby.

I honestly don’t know, but having watched Jagr when he was the best player on the planet I tend to think that he was probably better than Crosby.

[TheFlamesVan]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

No—not you specifically. This is more of an open question, since the OP at one point stated he believes that Crosby is the best of all time.

I think it is undeniably true that Gretzky, Orr, and Lemieux were better players than Crosby, but I think a more fair comparison is there to be made between Jagr and Crosby.

I honestly don’t know, but having watched Jagr when he was the best player on the planet I tend to think that he was probably better than Crosby.

Hard comparison. I'm my opinion C & D will always be more valuable than W. Crosby is more complete for sure, and add in Jagr being a selfish hockey player for the beginning of his career I'd probably take Crosby straight up if they started at the same time.

Can't argue that Jagr is one of the most intelligent players to play, but he also has a physical advantage that attributed to his point totals. I'd argue Crosby has no genetic advantage, and has become one of the best by being a scholar of the game. Same as Jagr in that way.

They are all amazing (99, 66, 4, 87, 68) and we are lucky to have witnessed them.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I honestly don’t know, but having watched Jagr when he was the best player on the planet I tend to think that he was probably better than Crosby.

Jagr has never been known for his defensive play. By 'complete player', I assume CroFlames meant offensive + defensive play. And I'd rather have Crosby on the ice protecting a lead in the third period of a game 7 than Jagr.

[Jacks]

Broken down 37 year old Gretzky with a bad back was still putting up over a point a game when scoring was lower than it is today.

Mario retired for 3 years, came back from cancer at 35 years old, and still dominated the league with 1.76PPG when scoring was at an all time low.

I wasn't around for Orr or Howe but so I can't comment on them but Gretzky and Lemieux were on a different tier than everyone else. Crosby is an incredible hockey player but he is closer to a Sakic, Yzerman or Forsberg than he is to Gretzky or Lemieux.

Here's something to think about.

Warren Young bounced around from the CHL to NHL to AHL throughout his career. He played a total of 236 NHL games, had 72 goals and 149 points. Included in those totals are the one year he played on Lemieux's line, that year he had 40 goals and 72 points. Rob Brown was a mediocre 20 - 40 point player, playing with Lemieux he had 49 goals and 115 points. No need for any examples of how Gretzky elevated everyone around him.

[DJones]

Originally Posted by Jacks

Broken down 37 year old Gretzky with a bad back was still putting up over a point a game when scoring was lower than it is today.

Mario retired for 3 years, came back from cancer at 35 years old, and still dominated the league with 1.76PPG when scoring was at an all time low.

I wasn't around for Orr or Howe but so I can't comment on them but Gretzky and Lemieux were on a different tier than everyone else. Crosby is an incredible hockey player but he is closer to a Sakic, Yzerman or Forsberg than he is to Gretzky or Lemieux.

Here's something to think about.

Warren Young bounced around from the CHL to NHL to AHL throughout his career. He played a total of 236 NHL games, had 72 goals and 149 points. Included in those totals are the one year he played on Lemieux's line, that year he had 40 goals and 72 points. Rob Brown was a mediocre 20 - 40 point player, playing with Lemieux he had 49 goals and 115 points. No need for any examples of how Gretzky elevated everyone around him.

Gretzky carrying around Semenko's dead weight for so long also probably hurt his numbers.

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by Canehdianman

I apologize if this had been posted, but....

You millennials know nothing.

I watched him several times live & all the time growing up. He played against chain smoking alcoholics.

The original poster made a valid statement. The only thing in Gretzky’s defence is you can’t compare eras, the game has evolved.

Gretzky would get buried in the fitness, analytics & coaching in today’s game if you dropped him into today’s game. Maybe if he grew up in this era Gretzky’s skill would rise, but he never had speed. It’s far from a cut & dried decidion. But he could only be measured against the quality of his competition at that time. He dominated.

If you look at the history of the game, it was played like rugby until 1929/30, when the forward pass was introduced. The cultural legacy of “the puck hog” still persists from this era. Gretzky was the opposite of the puck hog & his career culminated the exploitation of the forward pass. Today the game is at another level with the speed & the ability of 4th liners never greater. Combined with coaching this has enabled unseen parity of the league that is self evident. Any team can win on any night.

[Jacks]

The salary cap/floor has done more to contribute to the league wide parity than coaching or training. There is still a huge gap between the best players and 4th liners.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by nobles_point

I watched him several times live & all the time growing up. He played against chain smoking alcoholics.

The original poster made a valid statement. The only thing in Gretzky’s defence is you can’t compare eras, the game has evolved.

Gretzky would get buried in the fitness, analytics & coaching in today’s game if you dropped him into today’s game. Maybe if he grew up in this era Gretzky’s skill would rise, but he never had speed. It’s far from a cut & dried decidion. But he could only be measured against the quality of his competition at that time. He dominated.

If you look at the history of the game, it was played like rugby until 1929/30, when the forward pass was introduced. The cultural legacy of “the puck hog” still persists from this era. Gretzky was the opposite of the puck hog & his career culminated the exploitation of the forward pass. Today the game is at another level with the speed & the ability of 4th liners never greater. Combined with coaching this has enabled unseen parity of the league that is self evident. Any team can win on any night.

No.

Yes there were a few guys like that, but for the most part they were all still professional athletes and best in the world at what they did. Some of you make it sound like guys couldn't skate or shoot or anything at a high level.

Unequivocally false.

Also i have seen it mentioned a few times that there wasnt the same talent pool as there is now, and that is true. Its also true that there werent nearly as many jobs available back then either. When Gretzky scored 215 pts, there were only 21 teams in the league so the battle for jobs was just as fierce as it is now and there was not a lot less talent proportionally than we see today.

Go back to the original 6 era and it was even that much harder to be good enough to make the NHL, which makes the accomplishments of guys like Howe, Richard, Belliveau etc all that more impressive.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Leaders per decade:

2010's so far:
Crosby - 443 GP - 553 Points
Kane - 526 GP - 551 Points

2000's:
Thornton - 698 GP - 823 Points
Iginla - 713 GP - 724 Points

1990's:
Jagr - 725 GP - 958 Points
Sakic - 702 GP - 896 Points

1970's:
Esposito - 782 GP - 1087 Points
Lafleur - 677 GP - 941 Points

Esposito, Jagr, Crosby and Thornton can all easily make a case for the best player of their respective decades. Of course in part to Lemieux's ailments in the 90's and Crosby and Ovechkin coming along midway through the 2000's too late to challenge Thornton. But the next best player was right on their heels in term of points.

1980's:
Gretzky - 768 GP - 1842 Points
Stastny - 749 GP - 1059 Points

It's not even remotely close. He has 800 points more than the next best player. It's disparaging to the greats of the 80's. Bossy, Dionne, Bourque. He scored 1000 more points than them. But Bourque was still winning the Norris into the 90's. Hell, he was nominated in 1999. This ####ty 80's #### player who couldn't hold a candle to Gretzky was somehow one of the best defenders in the world up to 2000? That doesn't make sense if Gretzky was a product of the 80's.

No one is going to hurt Gretzky's legacy. But it's unfortunate that the greats that were so low below him, tiers lower, aren't being factored in. Does anyone think that prime Bourque wouldn't be fighting for the Norris in today's league? I mean, prime-Bossy might be able to score a couple goals in the AHL today but if Gretzky wouldn't dominate today, there's no way Bossy is making the bigshow