What to do with T.J. Brodie...

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Jimdon

A 6'4" pylon who has some of the best underlying numbers in the league.Hes 24 years old and has 3 40 plus point seasons under his belt and is on pace to do it again despite not getting #1 PP minutes. It's crazy how people are ready to throw him away because they feel like he doesn't hit enough. Theres 30 other teams in the league that would love to have a Hamilton "problem".

It is true Hamilton has some of the best underlying numbers in the NHL, which contributes to the success of Giordano-Hamilton as a pair.

If we are going to talk about underlying numbers though then will anyone tell me why TJ Brodie should have to play only with partners who have among the worst underlying numbers in the NHL? Because that is what Stone and Hamonic offer.

So which is it? Underlying numbers are right, in which case neither Stone nor Hamonic belong anywhere near a top 4. Or underlying numbers are wrong, in which case Dougie is fair game to criticize. There really isn't much room for an in-between opinion here IMO.

Originally Posted by IrishSpring2013

???

You sure never give up MMF, gotta hand it to you. Third account too, what happened to "JFK"?

Brodie played at an elite level individually carrying Engelland, but the pair saw no success. Part of that was because Brodie sacrificed all offense on the left aide, part of that was because Engelland was, like most Brodie partners, not a top 4 defenseman.

IMO Brodie is a RHD who can play LHD if needed, in spurts. But even Brodie-Stone is not a satisfactory pair for anything more than spurts. Brodie should be playing RHD and he should be playing with a partner who doesn't, for once, have among the worst underlyings in the NHL like Stone / Russell / Hamonic / Engelland. Or who simply is not an NHLer, like Jokipakka / Butler / Wideman. I am not making an unrealistic ask. Finding a #4LHD to pair with TJ Brodie is not as hard as Treliving and co have made it out to be with their stubborn adherence to their grit obsession. I suggested we sign Michael Del Zotto last offseason, not Hamonic nor Stone. An MDZ-Brodie second pair would be perfect.

[Jimdon]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

It is true Hamilton has some of the best underlying numbers in the NHL, which contributes to the success of Giordano-Hamilton as a pair.

If we are going to talk about underlying numbers though then will anyone tell me why TJ Brodie should have to play only with partners who have among the worst underlying numbers in the NHL? Because that is what Stone and Hamonic offer.

So which is it? Underlying numbers are right, in which case neither Stone nor Hamonic belong anywhere near a top 4. Or underlying numbers are wrong, in which case Dougie is fair game to criticize. There really isn't much room for an in-between opinion here IMO.

I don't really understand what you're asking. All I was saying is that I don't agree with the Hamilton hate or people who think he's a bigger problem than brodie because every measurable metric and stat says the opposite.

I would also be very apprehensive about splitting up one of the most dominant d-pairs in the league on the hope that it might make brodie better, I'm not convinced the risk outweighs the reward.

The one thing I've never seen from Brodie is the ability to make his partner better. It seems like he needs someone who compliments him to be successful, instead of being that complimentary partner himself.

[Beatle17]

[QUOTE=GranteedEV;6486289]....
If we are going to talk about underlying numbers though then will anyone tell me why TJ Brodie should have to play only with partners who have among the worst underlying numbers in the NHL? Because that is what Stone and Hamonic offer....

This is the same discussion that everyone has about Bennett. It is always someone else's fault that they suck. Brodie is terrible at defense, it is the reason he was the leading scorer in Junior and why he fell to the 4th round of the draft, no DEFENSE. He was directly responsible for 4 of the goals last night because he does not cover anyone in his own end EVER. If Stone and Hamonic both have crappy underlying numbers with Brodie what is the common denominator? Could it be Brodie.

I sat at the game and swore quietly every time Brodie was on the ice last night, which I do at just about every game. Left side or right side if he isn't playing with Gio he is not good enough to carry a pairing. If they could get a player along the lines of Josh Manson for Brodie I would trade him in a minute.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Jimdon

I don't really understand what you're asking. All I was saying is that I don't agree with the Hamilton hate or people who think he's a bigger problem than brodie because every measurable metric and stat says the opposite.

What I am saying is this:

If underlyings excuse Hamilton's imperfections, why do they not excuse the fact that Brodie is consistently saddled with anchors who consistently post poor underlyings. And yes, I do think they do both of those things. That's my point. Hamilton is a good player, and Brodie is a good player. Giordano is a good player. The three of these guys do not constitute a top four defense, because there are only three of them.

The one thing I've never seen from Brodie is the ability to make his partner better. It seems like he needs someone who compliments him to be successful, instead of being that complimentary partner himself.

Agree to disagree. Brodie is making Hamonic better right now by constantly covering for all the times teams attack the right side of the ice - the results are not there because of just how often teams target Hamonic. He made Stone much better last year. He made Russell much better two seasons ago. He made Engelland much better three seasons ago.

Fact is, Brodie can't make non-NHLers (2017 Wideman, Butler, Jokipakka) into top 4 NHLers. He can't make bottom pair defensemen (Russell, Engelland, Stone, Hamonic) into legitimate top 4 defensemen. But neither can Giordano, neither could Hamilton. Those are unrealistic standards. Giordano couldn't make Wideman work last year either. Hamilton couldn't make Jokipakka or Russell work either.

Brodie makes his partners better - he doesn't work miracles.

Originally Posted by Beatle17

This is the same discussion that everyone has about Bennett. It is always someone else's fault that they suck.

So Bennett hasn't been very good since being separated from the likes of Lazar and Versteeg and Brouwer? He doesn't have 8 points in his last 11 games? He isn't able to generate a certain chemistry with Gaudreau that no one - not even Monahan - has shown.

You're right - it is the same discussion about Brodie that it is with Bennett - because it's the same problem. Too many anchors. Far too many anchors who don't belong on roster if not for management's stubborn adherence to their grit quota.

Brodie is terrible at defense,

So terrible that he was a top pair defenseman on this team for years. So terrible that he leads our team in ice time when Hamilton is more offensive-minded. Very reasonable position to operate around.

it is the reason he was the leading scorer in Junior and why he fell to the 4th round of the draft, no DEFENSE.

What? Brodie had very little offensive production in his draft year. He never "fell" to the 4th round of the draft.

He was directly responsible for 4 of the goals last night because he does not cover anyone in his own end EVER.

Talk about hyperbole.

If Stone and Hamonic both have crappy underlying numbers with Brodie what is the common denominator? Could it be Brodie.

Stone and Hamonic both had crappy underlying numbers before we acquired them. Stone and Hamonic both had crappy underlying numbers playing with guys like Oliver Ekman Larsson, Alex Goligoski, Nick Leddy, and Calvin De Haan. Before Kulak came and saved his season, Stone was also struggling immensely in a sheltered third pair role. There was no evidence coming into this season that either Stone or Hamonic were a solution to Brodie's problems. There was no evidence going into last season or this that Troy Brouwer, Curtis Lazar or Alex Chiasson were appropriate linemates for Sam Bennett - yet the team forced these things and then pinned the blame on the two "star" players. Dennis Wideman couldn't even get a job this year, yet he was Brodie's partner most of last season. Chiasson had to basically sign a PTO to get a 4th line job, and I thought he was one of the best linemates Sam had last year. Brouwer and Lazar are still terrible, yet Bennett got the blame for them.

Quality of Teammate is a huge factor that influences perception. Guys like Brodie and Bennett do not need to be "carried", but that does not mean they should be anchored down by default.

[FireGilbert]

I am starting to think the Flames should look at trading Brodie this off season. The Flames can no longer afford his defensive lapses and inconsistencies however his contract and offensive skills should be enough to get a decent trade return.

I think what concerns me the most is his inability to play the left side. Defencemen usually play better on their strong side as it is easier to make breakout passes from your own zone and keep the puck in the offensive zone. I completely understand management wanting the defence on their correct sides and if Brodie cannot fit into this then it is time for him to move on.

[Jimdon]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

What I am saying is this:

If underlyings excuse Hamilton's imperfections, why do they not excuse the fact that Brodie is consistently saddled with anchors who consistently post poor underlyings. And yes, I do think they do both of those things. That's my point. Hamilton is a good player, and Brodie is a good player. Giordano is a good player. The three of these guys do not constitute a top four defense, because there are only three of them.



Agree to disagree. Brodie is making Hamonic better right now by constantly covering for all the times teams attack the right side of the ice - the results are not there because of just how often teams target Hamonic. He made Stone much better last year. He made Russell much better two seasons ago. He made Engelland much better three seasons ago.

Fact is, Brodie can't make non-NHLers (2017 Wideman, Butler, Jokipakka) into top 4 NHLers. He can't make bottom pair defensemen (Russell, Engelland, Stone, Hamonic) into legitimate top 4 defensemen. But neither can Giordano, neither could Hamilton. Those are unrealistic standards. Giordano couldn't make Wideman work last year either. Hamilton couldn't make Jokipakka or Russell work either.

Brodie makes his partners better - he doesn't work miracles.

That's where we disagree. I think Hamilton's imperfections are baseless. There seems to be a faction of people who feel like because Hamilton isn't as physical as they think he could be that it makes him a soft player and they focus on that saying that he's no good because he doesn't hit enough or take the body. The thing is every measurable stat suggests he thrives playing the style that he does. I've never seen any actual facts or data that back up the negative opinions that people seem to have of him.

I'm also just not sure how brodie is making hamonic a better player either. Honestly I don't know if hamonics metrics are better or worse now that he's playing with brodie, but outside of getting points on the PP Brodies numbers are pretty bad this year.

[Gaskal]

Promote Kulak.
Demote Brodie.
Dougie gets a gentle chiding.

Gio - Hamilton
Kulak - Hamonic
Brodie - Stone

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

What I am saying is this:



Quality of Teammate is a huge factor that influences perception. Guys like Brodie and Bennett do not need to be "carried", but that does not mean they should be anchored down by default.

Here is the issue, you keep saying this and pointing out the terrible play by others but refuse to see "the underlying numbers" of your favourite
players. Brodie is a decent player, that is it. He can not carry a pair, he doesn't make his partners better and HE CAN NOT or WON'T play defense. You want to dismiss the underlying numbers with Hamilton but try to use them with Brodie you can't have it both ways.

And Brodie scored 56 points in 65 games in his last season in OHL.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Gaskal

Promote Kulak.
Demote Brodie.
Dougie gets a gentle chiding.

Gio - Hamilton
Kulak - Hamonic
Brodie - Stone

I agree with this. At least temporarily. There needs to be a reset on the D. Way too much given up for way too long. That old insanity quote is starting to ring true.

We've seen Brodie playing confidently in the past. It's nothing like he's playing now. He skates, spins out of trouble, uses a great stick and doesn't get stuck along the boards. The opposite is happening to him now.

I don't believe players just suddenly lose ability especially without injury or being young. It needs to be fixed.

Something I've noticed:

The Brodie Giordano pair used to pass the puck a bunch to each other. Reverses, or spin back and send it over.

Gulutzan has stated he wants it to go d to d then up. He doesn't want the d to hold the puck or pass the puck to each other much.

It's a difference, not sure a big thing and doesn't explain the issues defending. This Jerard coach needs to feel some heat about the piss poor play in giving up so much.

Enough is enough. No more excuses.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by FireGilbert

I am starting to think the Flames should look at trading Brodie this off season. The Flames can no longer afford his defensive lapses and inconsistencies however his contract and offensive skills should be enough to get a decent trade return.

I think what concerns me the most is his inability to play the left side. Defencemen usually play better on their strong side as it is easier to make breakout passes from your own zone and keep the puck in the offensive zone. I completely understand management wanting the defence on their correct sides and if Brodie cannot fit into this then it is time for him to move on.

Really? So you'd be OK with him going to Edmonton, and McLellan playing him on his off side, and him returning to form?

[4X4]

It is just so baffling how many people are satisfied with the unbelievably rigid coaching system that's barely winning more than it's losing, wiith the amount of players that are choking and dying under this system that has absolutely no adaptation to it.

Am I in f'ing Edmonton?

[Phaneuf_Phan]

Problem is so easy to solve: Put Gio and Brodie back together again and tell them to play like they did in Hartley's last year. Rest of the D continue playing under GG's defensive system. The two looks on D will also throw off the opposition. I should be a head coach, this isn't difficult.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

Here is the issue, you keep saying this and pointing out the terrible play by others but refuse to see "the underlying numbers" of your favourite players.

Refuse to see it? There isn't enough sample size for me to run around flaunting it, but here are the underlying numbers of Brodie and Hamonic this season:

Brodie W Hamonic - 43.97% xGF
Hamonic WO Brodie - 44.3% xGF
Brodie WO Hamonic - 60.4% xGF

I'm not "refusing to see it" so much as there's no evidence that "it" exists. These numbers are not unlike Hamonic's numbers last year:

Hamonic W Leddy - 42% xGF
Leddy WO Hamonic - 49.4% xGF
Hamonic WO Leddy - 46.8% xGF


Hamonic W De Haan - 48.2% xGF
De Haan WO Hamonic - 54.5% xGF
Hamonic WO De Haan - 42.6% xGF

The drag on the pair is obvious to the eye test, the underlying numbers only indicate what, not why. And no, Mike Stone is not the solution despite the stylistic chemistry, he is also a bottom pair defenseman too and comes with his own, different issues even if he has more chemistry with Brodie - putting those two back together would be gauze on the bleeding at best.

None of that means Hamonic outright sucks or isn't an NHLer. It just means he is way out of his element in a top four role at this stage in his career. And it also doesn't mean Stone is better than him, because other than his point shot, Hamonic is still a better option than Stone. He's just not a very good option.

You want to dismiss the underlying numbers with Hamilton

When did I dismiss the underlying numbers with Hamilton? When have I ever criticized Hamilton for anything except for stupid penalties?

but try to use them with Brodie you can't have it both ways,

I'm not. That's my point. Hamilton is good, despite some mistakes. Brodie is good, despite some mistakes. The players putting either of these guys into tough situations in recent years have been weak partners like Jokipakka, Stone, and Hamonic brought in for fitting an aesthetic of size and perceived crease clearing instead of raw ability. Give me a soft, weak, top four defenseman over these guys. That's how the Predators are a good team despite a "soft" Josi-Ellis second pair.

The underlying numbers - not just for this season but for recent past seasons - make it clear that this team has a clear gap on the defense core from the top 3 defensemen to the others, aside from Brett Kulak who won't get much opportunity because he is treated with kid gloves regardless of his shift-for-shift excellence.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf_Phan

Problem is so easy to solve: Put Gio and Brodie back together again and tell them to play like they did in Hartley's last year. Rest of the D continue playing under GG's defensive system. The two looks on D will also throw off the opposition. I should be a head coach, this isn't difficult.

That would be a deviation from Rainman's "10 minutes to Wapner" system. Not gonna happen.

[RoughRiderRowdy]

Originally Posted by jimdon

i don't really understand what you're asking. All i was saying is that i don't agree with the hamilton hate or people who think he's a bigger problem than brodie because every measurable metric and stat says the opposite.

I would also be very apprehensive about splitting up one of the most dominant d-pairs in the league on the hope that it might make brodie better, i'm not convinced the risk outweighs the reward.

The one thing i've never seen from brodie is the ability to make his partner better. It seems like he needs someone who compliments him to be successful, instead of being that complimentary partner himself.

he cant play defensively

[RoughRiderRowdy]

At the end of the day brodies inability to play defence totally outweighs his offensive production. We need defenders who defend, not put up 40 points a season.

[Jimdon]

Originally Posted by RoughRiderRowdy

At the end of the day brodies inability to play defence totally outweighs his offensive production. We need defenders who defend, not put up 40 points a season.

Not to pile on but Brodie has never put up a 40pt season

[Kovaz]

Originally Posted by Jimdon

Not to pile on but Brodie has never put up a 40pt season

Except for the 41- and 45-point seasons he put up 2 and 3 years ago?

[Stay Golden]

Originally Posted by RoughRiderRowdy

At the end of the day brodies inability to play defence totally outweighs his offensive production. We need defenders who defend, not put up 40 points a season.

This, fully agree every D man on the Flames should be able to defend. Brodie this season has rapidly become a liability not just in his own end but he has become a player on the point that has become a liability either making a bad decision when to pinch and an increasing amount of times fumbling around with the puck causing instant odd man rushes going the other way. BTW Brodie was not like this prior to 2016. Hmmm i wonder what changed with the Flames in 2016.

[calbow]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf_Phan

Problem is so easy to solve: Put Gio and Brodie back together again and tell them to play like they did in Hartley's last year. Rest of the D continue playing under GG's defensive system. The two looks on D will also throw off the opposition. I should be a head coach, this isn't difficult.

I was thinking this for a while now..I totally agree....A no Brainer...