The trials and tribulations of Glen Gulutzan

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by kukkudo

They both have a combined 6 cups in the past 8 years. Don't think they are too worried about early season struggles.

Yeah, I was sarcastic. But to your point about track records, I agree, and it applies to players too. And it is also evident that a bad season (like Sullivan had in Boston) doesn't necessarily mean bad coach. Q was fired in St. Louis with a pretty similar record to GG's right now - a couple games over .500.

Quenneville may be using up his rope though - out of the POs in the first round for the last two years.

[Karl]

Originally Posted by Itse

Bennett isn't half bad defensively IMO. It's probably the last thing keeping him as a regular in the lineup. He does cheat while trying to get to offense, but that's a problem with most of our forwards.

Perhaps, but Bennett is often behind the play and takes bad penalties as a result of this, despite him being more than a fast enough skater.

It seems more than clear that his legs can easily keep up but his brain just is not keeping up.

[Flash Walken]

If the rationale is that the penguins and Hawks aren't panicking because they have had success in previous years, shouldn't that doubly apply to the flames who have not made the playoffs for the bulk of the last decade and find themselves looking at the potential of back to back playoff appearances for the first time since 2008?

Just what franchise are you all watching here? Things could be considerably worse for this current roster.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Karl

Perhaps, but Bennett is often behind the play and takes bad penalties as a result of this, despite him being more than a fast enough skater.

It seems more than clear that his legs can easily keep up but his brain just is not keeping up.

While true, I think he's shown previously that he shouldn't be this mentally slow as a player. He's previously shown he can actually react to things very quickly. He's even played well with Gaudreau which takes some hockey IQ.

I really hope the guy is seeing a sports shrink. I'm starting to think he might be suffering from depression or bordering on a burnout. I know from personal experience stuff like that can turn a normally quick brain into a really slow one.

[kukkudo]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Yeah, I was sarcastic. But to your point about track records, I agree, and it applies to players too. And it is also evident that a bad season (like Sullivan had in Boston) doesn't necessarily mean bad coach. Q was fired in St. Louis with a pretty similar record to GG's right now - a couple games over .500.

Quenneville may be using up his rope though - out of the POs in the first round for the last two years.

Totally and if they miss or get bounced out this year, he will be looking for a new team.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

If the rationale is that the penguins and Hawks aren't panicking because they have had success in previous years, shouldn't that doubly apply to the flames who have not made the playoffs for the bulk of the last decade and find themselves looking at the potential of back to back playoff appearances for the first time since 2008?

Just what franchise are you all watching here? Things could be considerably worse for this current roster.

So because we sucked in the past we should be content with mediocracy in the present?

Oookkkeeee.....

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

So because we sucked in the past we should be content with mediocracy in the present?

Oookkkeeee.....

But we're not necessarily mediocre, that's the thing, just like the Penguins are not mediocre despite their mediocre record.

I think it's hard to say what we are at this point.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Itse

But we're not necessarily mediocre, that's the thing, just like the Penguins are not mediocre despite their mediocre record.

I think it's hard to say what we are at this point.

In terms of progression, the Flames were a lottery team two years ago, a wild card team this year. My expectation for this year was that they'd be a solid PO team, and hopefully win a couple rounds (though POs are tricky to predict at this point). I felt they still have a couple holes in the roster and aren't as deep as they can be (and will be when the rookies are ready and a couple expensive contracts drop off).

[Itse]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

In terms of progression, the Flames were a lottery team two years ago, a wild card team this year. My expectation for this year was that they'd be a solid PO team, and hopefully win a couple rounds (though POs are tricky to predict at this point). I felt they still have a couple holes in the roster and aren't as deep as they can be (and will be when the rookies are ready and a couple expensive contracts drop off).

This is pretty similar to how I feel. However, I get why there's so much debate over Gulutzan. Defensive issues not getting better while the top line cools down would pretty much mean disaster, but get the defensive mishaps down and the bottom 6 producing at even a mediocre pace, and we're IMO at true contender level. (Depth everywhere + offensive superstar or even two with Monahan threatening to score 50 + solid goaltending.)

These are both I think very realistic scenarios, which is why I feel like I really don't know where we're at. Most likely of course somewhere in the middle.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

In terms of progression, the Flames were a lottery team two years ago, a wild card team this year. My expectation for this year was that they'd be a solid PO team, and hopefully win a couple rounds (though POs are tricky to predict at this point). I felt they still have a couple holes in the roster and aren't as deep as they can be (and will be when the rookies are ready and a couple expensive contracts drop off).

I agree. I wanted to see them in a playoff spot with an over .500% win% at American Thanksgiving and on pace with the snake. All those goals were met.

100point season with a top 3 division spot is still doable. I didn't expect them to make a run for the cup the first year the window starts to crack open, instead a solid position instead of sneaking into 7 or 8th in the last week of the season. All of which is still easily doable imo.

There is lots still to work on, PK was horrible but improving and I don't think they are playing the system properly like in the second half of last year. Still feels very run and gunish instead of puck control. Defense could use a change up, and the bottom 6 need a shot of adrenaline. Top line is better than expected, bottom 6 is less, goalie is more, defense is less, so it all evens out to a 95-100 point team.

[Karl]

Originally Posted by belsarius

I agree. I wanted to see them in a playoff spot with an over .500% win% at American Thanksgiving and on pace with the snake. All those goals were met.

100point season with a top 3 division spot is still doable. I didn't expect them to make a run for the cup the first year the window starts to crack open, instead a solid position instead of sneaking into 7 or 8th in the last week of the season. All of which is still easily doable imo.

There is lots still to work on, PK was horrible but improving and I don't think they are playing the system properly like in the second half of last year. Still feels very run and gunish instead of puck control. Defense could use a change up, and the bottom 6 need a shot of adrenaline. Top line is better than expected, bottom 6 is less, goalie is more, defense is less, so it all evens out to a 95-100 point team.

Flames bottom 6 doesn't necessarily need a shot of adrenaline, but the 4th line needs a complete overhaul.

Stajan is completely washed up, Lazar and Freddie are hopeless and Brouwer and Versteeg are well past their prime and in major decline, so there is little to suggest even those 2 will perform much better than what they're doing now at any point this year.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by Karl

Flames bottom 6 doesn't necessarily need a shot of adrenaline, but the 4th line needs a complete overhaul.

Stajan, Lazar and Freddie are hopeless and Brouwer and Versteeg are well past their prime and in major decline, so there is little to suggest even those 2 will perform much better than what they're doing now at any point this year.

Yeah you are right, to clarify I consider Hathaway and Mangiapane to be adrenaline.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Itse

While true, I think he's shown previously that he shouldn't be this mentally slow as a player. He's previously shown he can actually react to things very quickly. He's even played well with Gaudreau which takes some hockey IQ.

I really hope the guy is seeing a sports shrink. I'm starting to think he might be suffering from depression or bordering on a burnout. I know from personal experience stuff like that can turn a normally quick brain into a really slow one.

I wonder about this too. I can’t just be bad luck or a regular slump

[Red]

Originally Posted by Karl

Flames bottom 6 doesn't necessarily need a shot of adrenaline, but the 4th line needs a complete overhaul.

Stajan is completely washed up, Lazar and Freddie are hopeless and Brouwer and Versteeg are well past their prime and in major decline, so there is little to suggest even those 2 will perform much better than what they're doing now at any point this year.

Doesn't help that this team is never ahead by a few goals to give these guys some serious chance to score. They are squeezing their sticks in tight games.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by troutman

"Ready to Play" - Working Harder" - What does that even mean, where every team is competing each game on the same ice? How can a coach guarantee you are ready to play or working harder than the other team, when they the other team is trying to do the same thing?

Was it coaching or talent that helped the Leafs to win all the battles?

Occam's razor - some teams are not as talented as other teams.

So the Flames are better than Washington and Pittsburgh, but not as good as Toronto and Detroit?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

You are correct, I disagree with a whole lot of those. A whole lot of those are not reflective of GG's system. The breakout you described certainly isn't - it is what happens when a player doesn't follow the system and gets out too far ahead of the play - that's when they have to stop, turn and stand still. In the correct implementation they are all moving forward.

Well if that's the case, then all 3 forwards aren't following the system, at the same time, on multiple shifts every game. And if that were in fact the case, then I would fire the coach immediately.

I've seen GG argue with refs plenty of times. He doesn't scream, but I don't want Patrick Roy (or Jim Playfair) on the bench.

I don't want Roy either. But there is a balance, and Gulutzan errs too far the other way IMO. THere are times when passion is required, when energy is required, when standing up for your players for the sheer sake of it is required. It's part of a coach's job. And he lacks in that regard.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by JerryUnderscore

Sorry then I must have misunderstood. After my first post regarding some of the advanced stats you had a post in which you said,



I took that to mean you were dismissing the fact that the team is doing well both in the standings and in advances stats.

Also, thank you for reiterating your points. I don't follow each thread so I definitely missed some of your thoughts from other threads.

A lot of your thoughts seem to come down to a belief that the team is not living up to their potential. Would that be accurate to say?

If so, how would you assess their potential?

I think that is fair to say, yes. IMO, it is the coach's job to get the team playing to the best of their abilities. That includes utilizing them properly and employing a system or style that suits the talent and skill set of the players. And I don't think Gulutzan is terrible at these things, but I don't think he s capable of taking them to the next level - at least he hasn't shown it to this point.

[tkflames]

I consider myself one of the front seat drivers of the upgrade GG bandwagon...and even I can't handle this thread getting bumped after every loss. The league parity will result in off nights and on nights.

I would love if this thread could turn more into some of the solid posts that discuss specific technical issues with applicable screenshots or data identifying short comings rather than a constant barrage of opinions and anecdotal examples of mismatching. Not everyone has the skills or knowledge or time to do this, however it would certainly improve the quality of this thread.

E.g.

If talking about line matching, then provide data of the number of shortened shifts in away games or similar supoortive/defeating data

If claiming the system is flawed then show how better teams are approaching the same challenge

If claiming that he does not know how to motivate players, show that we have a disproportionately low number of players having career highs compared to the rest of the league or an abnormally high ice time for bad players.

If believing he is disproportionate loyal to veterans, then show the average ice time of guys like Bart, Brouwer, Stajan versus the veterans on some of the better teams.

If claiming that GG is a good coach then show the opposite.

If claiming that he doesn't intimidate the referees like other coaches....well I don't know how to prove that. Maybe you do!!

I believe that captures most of the complaints against the coaching. Let's aim to be better together CP!!

[MisterJoji]

I really feel, as we’ve seen in the past, that the team will hit its stride come Christmas time. They’re always slow starters (although they do have a better record after 24 games this year vs last year) and will start putting together some good winning streaks in the new year. Just have to remain within striking distance until then.

[icecube]

How about this- GG sucks, but I can't prove it because I'm too lazy. But I just know that he does and that's good enough in my world.